Value of a company's CAD title block 18

[LarryEF]

If this is an improper posting, please let me know. I'm new to this site, and I do not want to violate your policies.

I am a mechanical engineer and I represent a designer who copied and modified his previous employer's AutoCAD title block to use at his new company. I would like to get members' opinions as to a dollar value of the damages to the employer. The employer claims over $2 million. No drawings were taken, only the title block, and it was modified.

Thank you. Again, if this is out of line, I apologize.

I hope to contribute to this site in the future.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I'd bet a dollar they stole it from someone else.

Is there a copyright notice on the image he took? Do look carefully. In a CAD file, it could be hidden in super tiny text that plots too small to see, or hidden in wasted space in the file that doesn't plot at all, but is present, and will show up in a dump of the file. If you don't know what that means, find someone who does.

Absent a copyright notice, well ... talk to your lawyer anyway.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

What damage did the previous company sustain by someone copying their title block?


SW07-SP3

 

[Qshake]

CorBlimeyLimey -

While I don't know the specifics of this case I can speak from experience as a consultant that your identity as a company can be damaged.

Most title blocks for consulting companies are treated like a corporate identity and over years the company's work is quickly identifiable by a client. When the client is presented with similar drawings and leaner costs clients figure that they are getting the same quality as the former company but at less costs. So the client dumps original company.

I don't know that there is a copyright on title blocks or title borders but I do see the perception. And as we know in society today, anyone can sue anybody for just about anything.

Regards,
Qshake

Eng-Tips Forums:Real Solutions for Real Problems Really Quick.

 

[CorBlimeyLimey]

But unless the title block had a particularly artistic layout which in itself was a "logo" branded to the company, then a title block is a title block is a title block ... assuming no obvious company names or logos or unique fonts were left in the block.

You are correct though; anyone can sue anybody for just about anything ... and win!!!


SW07-SP3

 

[LarryEF]

Thanks everyone. I appreciate your opinions and your quick repsonse.

I'm acting as an expert witness. I'm not personally involved. I agree the guy shouldn't have used his previous employer's file. It is a fairly standard title block with no visible references to the previous employer.

Thanks again.

 

[IRstuff]

The simplest thing to do is to collect up a bunch of title blocks from unrelated drawings and show that they're all pretty similar and no reasonable person could associate that title block with that company.

Obviously, they didn't spend $2 million designing that gold-plated title block, did they? And it you can show that there's not unique about the title block itself, there really can be any claim of adverse economic impact.

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376

 

[JStephen]

There are various standard title blocks available in AutoCAD and other places. You can or could buy paper for hand drafting with preprinted title blocks. If you can show that some other source(s) also used title blocks very similar, seems it would help.

 

[IRstuff]

Oh, a cool experiment would be to copy a bunch of different title blocks onto a single sheet and ask the jury, or the judge, if htey can pick out that company's title block, strictly from the design.

TTFN

Eng-Tips Policies FAQ731-376

 

[prohammy]

One other way of looking at this...

Technically, your friend has committed the crime of theft. I assume he electronically took the title block from the first firm's data. Without the express permission of that company, he has no right to have any of their data (however small and insignificant he may deem that to be). If the title block he took had the first companies logo, name, address etc. then I think they will have a very strong case against him personally.

From the point of view of the dollar value of a claim against the second company, there are any number of ways that the second company can substansiate their claim. They can base it on loss of revenue (direct loss of projects and contracts to the second company), or loss/degradation of corporate image due to customer confusion.

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK

 

[sbozy25]

I'm sorry but a title block is not the property of a company. It is more than likely an arbitrary design someone came up with which is most likely a spin off of a standard ASME block. The only way this company can claim any damages is if they hold the appropriate copywrite paper work that shows they own that design. If that is the case, then I am afraid to say they should probably go after many other people and companies as most blocks look almost the same. Without the paperwork they have nothign, and personally I would like to see a copywrite office that would awarde that status to a companies title block...

 

[ajack1]

Wow if anyone is interested in “stealing” my company title block for $2M please let me know.

I would be more than happy to throw in the company logo, various PC’s and laptops, software, printers, copiers and faxes various office furniture and a full order book.

 

[LarryEF]

Thanks for your continuing comments.

If you think about it, every title block is an adaptation of someone else's, whether it is a Standard (ANSI, ISO, etc.) or another company. The guy's previous employer didn't start his design from scratch either.

 

[unclesyd]

In the the early days of CAD it was quite common to change the layout of a print based on a feature seen on someone else's title block or border layout. It seemed that every group wanted their own until the corporate published a edict that included the preferred layout. There was a lot of time wasted by management on this subject.

I generally agree with sbozy25 with the exception of the copywrite office as I've seen many things that carried a copywrite that I would have considered common knowledge.

 

[cbrn]

Hi,
what I'm writing could possibly not be appliable in USA, but anyway...
- if it's true that the titleblock has been modified, and if it's true that any explicit reference to the original company is removed, then (at least in Italy...) this is NO LONGER the same title block, and this definitely closes the matter.
- the "original company", on the other hand, DO CAN sue the designer who has stolen an electronic document, whichever the use he has made of it afterwards, for the simple fact he behaved as a thief. But, first of all it has to demonstrate the theft, then it has to demonstrate the economical damage it claims...

Regards

 

[TheTick]

Was the previous employer's title block derived from someone else's template (i.e CAD system default)?

 

[telecomguy]

I just noticed someone has the same header and footer on their excel spreadsheet as the one my company uses. They both contain a title, description, date, sheet numbers, and file name. Can we sue them???

This is really sad. Most likely, the original company created their title block by looking at or copying someone elses title block. They added their own customizations to it and called it their own. I think it's just sour apples...

<tg>

 

[sbozy25]

Yeah really... If this is how things are going to be from now on I just give up. We might as well find the original engineer who designed the first title block and have him sue the entire manufacturing world for using a derivitive of his design. In a way we are all thiefs!

 

[zdas04]

Hell, you can have my title block for a cup of coffee and you'll still be paying WAY too much. I think the "thief" should counter sue for pain and suffering and mental anguish at being sued for $2 million.

David

 

[MikeHalloran]

You can sue anyone for anything.

Patents protect ideas. If you had a patent on the idea of putting a header on a spreadsheet, you could go after anyone who ever put a header of any kind on any spreadsheet. (First you need the time machine to establish precedence, but that's another matter.)


If you put a copyright notice on your customized spreadsheet header and someone copies it without permission, your suit against them could prevail.

Copyrights protect the _expression_ of ideas, not the idea itself. So a header in a different format, i.e. visually distinct, would not infringe your copyright. But if someone copies your work and does not make the copy visually distinct enough to qualify as a different expression of the same idea, _and_ you have applied a copyright notice, you would have a good case. I don't think it's even necessary for the plaintiff to prove that damage resulted; they can just demand an arbitrary license fee, or excision of the offending material from every copy ever made.









Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA