Very Tall Wood Framed Buildings 1

[BSVBD]

Seems like for tall buildings they'd have to solve the long-term wood creep issue.

... PLUS ...

Simplistically I'd think durability related issues given the likely longevity would be one of the biggest concerns along with fire risks as briefly mentioned in the article..

...PLUS ...

Just because you can, does not mean you should.

All of the above and especially cranky's statement... I see engineering and life-safety protests.

Even if such structure would get approval, the general public DOES, (on occasion) have reasonable common sense, coupled with a built-in, intellectually reasonable fear factor.

(stay with me - I'll come back)

Occupancy related: There is an approximate 100-unit condominium complex in my city of residence, targeted for the upper-middle class resident, built in the lower-middle class neighborhood, overlooking a large convenience-store-gas station with a deserted gas-station across the street. Grand-opening over ten years ago, i believe about a half-dozen units have been occupied. Could this be termed situational or circumstantial occupancy - or lack thereof? It's been in the news that the developer is not financially well-pleased.

(wrapping up)

Likewise, all things considered, if the wood skyscraper were to get built, how many people would be willing to occupy it. Would any of us? Currently... Not I!!! It would be interesting... after my predicted "failure to financially-feasibly-occupy", would another like-structure be built?

If you can build high performance aircraft largely out of the stuff why not buildings?

Answer: Because, unlike aircraft, in typical structural engineering, our general goal is to prevent the building from flying.

Wood timber framed. Work fine, last long time.

Mint, how tall is that structure? Does it compare to the OP?

I still count five wood over masonry.

I don't understand. I missed something. Please elaborate.

 

[KENAT]

BSVBD, a suitable sized foundation would keep any aircraft grounded wouldn't it?

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[BSVBD]

KENAT... ONLY if we fasten it with a suitable seat-belt!

 

[cranky108]

An all wood seat-belt?

If you really want a large tree house, you might think about the banyan tree.

Actually I have seen some older and nice wood structure and brick covered buildings of several stories tall. By now it has steel added, with epoxy on the bricks to extend it's life. But none the less, wood is a viable building material. But beyond about four stories, I would question the value of using wood.

 

[BSVBD]

An all wood seat-belt? ... Actually I have seen some older and nice wood structure and brick covered buildings of several stories tall. By now it has steel added...

I can see Simpson Strong-Tie (cautiously) interested in this prospect... with waivers...

Even the famous Sequoiadendron giganteum (Giant Seqouia) has a reported record height of only 311'. The architect of THAT structure CREATED the limited design values of wood.

Simply dividing steel MOE and Fb by the best manufactured wood values, you'll be in the neighborhood of 14-19:1. Until we accomplish Frank Wrights mile-high-scraper, in steel, which would have a ratio of roughly 17:1 over the worlds highest "natural" wood structure, we should understand that no wood structure should even be safely considered to exceed 1/14 - 1/19 that of the completed tallest steel structure.

Wood is simply NOT intended to go that high!

 

[KENAT]

Is the limit on giant Seqouia & Redwood height actually structural or is it related to biological/chemical processes of pulling moisture and nutrients up from the ground etc.?

http://www.livescience.com/14667-tall-trees-grow.html

Above link suggests its a biological limit, not primarily structural.

So, as much as I'm all for giving the Almighty the appropriate recognition for coming up with the rules we play by, a living tree V wooden building are playing a different game and hence different rules apply.

Plus what manufactured wood values are you using? The aircraft I mentioned used a balsa core between plywood 'skins' - I don't know values off the top of my head etc. but for some applications may be higher than for OSB style materials even in shapes made to optimize I.

Obviously cost effectiveness may be an issue driven by various factors but fundamentally I wonder what could be achieved.

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[MintJulep]

Himeji Castle.

Best I can determine from various web sources 33 meters over the base of the masonry foundation.

The exterior appearance is 5 stories, but the inside is actually 7.

Originally the main columns were single tree trunks, however various repair and renovation projects over the past 400 or so years have resulted in some splices.

 

[marty007]

Another issue that I don't think has been touched on is the fire safety during construction. Just last week here in BC, a townhouse complex that was under construction caught fire during the night, but because the building wasn't complete, there were no sprinklers. The fire raged so fiercely, that it jumped to a neighboring inhabited complex, and burned it to the point it will likely have to be demolished.

I would hope that fire safety should have to be installed during the framing construction, and not just at the end.

Put one floor up, install fire sprinklers, put next floor up, ...

 

[KENAT]

Well, it hasn't been touched on except in the very first reply and a couple times since, such as say the big picture on the 5/24 post.

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[BSVBD]

KENAT, i will concede to agree that the limit is related to structural AND (natural) biological/chemical.

Therefore, without the natural bio/chem process, the wood "would" be even LESS effective.

There IS fire-resistant treated wood. I believe the cost is higher. And what about the potential corrosion of fasteners as a result from resistive treatment?

Although fire is an apparent increasing focus in this post, agreeing it must be addressed, considering the remote possibility of its occurrence, referring back to the OP, I consider JAE's thought of long-term creep, in addition to corrosion of fasteners a more necessary concern that is CERTAIN to occur. I see this OP building requiring an overwhelming amount of steel holdowns, tension ties, straps, tie-rods, etc...

Despite the life-safety classification of building type of the structure, structurally speaking, can a structure technically be considered a wood structure if the primary, imperative component is steel?

Although i was not involved in a past multi-level wood-frame hotel project within our firm, I recall the stud walls on the first floor being 2x10 studs necessary to support the resulting compression load. I struggle to see this type of construction as cost-efficient. Now, considering a structure 10-20 times higher, what percentage of floor area would be consumed by the required compression area of the wood?

Tall wood buildings are not my area of expertise...

...fundamentally I wonder what could be achieved.

ANSWER: Accomplishment and firm or personal recognition. Now... if it would fail, there would certainly be a different perspective of accomplishment and recognition.

 

[CheckerHater]

Not exactly high-rise, but wooden structure housing over 3000 people:

More pictures here:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadie...=arena_fotos&sportart=eishockey&id=156&page=1

"For every expert there is an equal and opposite expert"
Arthur C. Clarke Profiles of the future

 

[davefitz]

It is an interesting topic, and I suppose there will be more use of the CLT wood horizontal beams to enhance the "green" advertising for the building. The limitations on compressive stress implies the vertical columns would likely be steel/concrete, so a hybrid construction would likely govern, but the advertising brochures would only show glossy photos of the lamented wood beams, since perception is reality. The developer only needs to finance the construction and then sell the building on its green attributes and he is then free and clear , and the builder can claim bankruptcy if the carpenter ants end its useful function after 10 yrs. There may be some critics of the use of glues or fireproofing additives than of-gas vapors that increase the rate of caner and birth defects for the occupants, but there seems to be effective ways of muting that natural response.

"Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!"

 

[drawoh]

Not exactly high-rise, but wooden structure housing over 3000 people:

More pictures here:

http://www.stadionwelt.de/sw_stadien/index.php?are...

I love how the person sitting in the bleachers is wearing a helmet.

--
JHG

 

[drawoh]

We could make this environmentally friendly by building the main structural components with live trees. It also makes sense from a financial perspective as your building would physically grow.

Here's how it works.
- Plant trees at 4 corners of proposed building location...

I have a gorgeous ash tree on my front lawn. I understand that it is about 35[ ]years old. You could build a nifty tree-house in it. I am about to have it inoculated in the hope that it will not be killed by emerald ash borer beetles. There are no other ash trees in the immediate vicinity, so I think I have a chance.

What happens fifteen years into your project, when some pest shows up that attacks the species of tree you are relying on. It is bad enough when your electricians go on strike.

--
JHG

 

[Panther140]

"What happens fifteen years into your project, when some pest shows up that attacks the species of tree you are relying on. It is bad enough when your electricians go on strike."

I'll get a specialized team of spiders and woodpeckers.

"Formal education is a weapon, whose effect depends on who holds it in his hands and at whom it is aimed." ~ Joseph Stalin

 

[EdStainless]

Calling the two upper levels at Himeji floors is being generous, they are each less than 6' clear, maybe 8' floor to floor.
The view from the top is fantastic. If you are ever traveling in Japan (from Osaka to Hiroshima) it is worth stopping in this very nice small city. And walking to the top of the castle.

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