CWB1
Mechanical
- May 21, 2013
- 2,054
Having compared and contrasted my experience in the military vs that in the white collar world in various threads over the years, I'm going to jump at Sparweb's suggestion to start a new thread focused on veteran experiences in the military and the possible takeaways applicable to our civilian engineering careers, leadership or otherwise. Feel free to share or join, former military and friends alike.
From the Women in Engineering thread:
You're taking this a (logical) step further and drawing a conclusion about causation that I didn't really intend to address, simply bc the military culture of respect is complex enough that there really isn't any one significant, specific cause. My point was simply that the military IMHO is much more openly communicative (candor) to their benefit at the detriment of political correctness, which makes myself and many others question if the move toward "extreme HR" isn't detrimental to a company's culture.
To your point however - Somewhat yes but mostly no. I'm sure the custom & courtesy shown to rank helps subliminally keep respect forefront, but I believe the culture of respect is more shaped by each service's recognition of the human factors and the duty of leadership than anything. One of the first things you learn in basic training is that everybody makes mistakes, often large ones, but we're all in it together so holding grudges and negative feelings is a needless distraction. Ultimately the military owns everyone from the top officer to the lowest enlisted for X years, your individual rights have been mostly forfeited, everybody must obey orders given, and that will lead to a ton of personal sacrifice, separation from family and friends, and possibly even death. Early on you learn to be a good follower - to trust your leaders explicitly and without hesitation (blind faith) that you are capable of accomplishing what they say regardless if you believe the task is possible or yourself physically capable. This level of trust leads to all manner of negative stereotypes about the military being rigid and uncaring, yet quite the opposite is true. It seems like a waste sometimes to stand in formation with everybody multiple times daily, but good communication led to frequent quick praise, "good job at/on/doing...." which creates the fierce esprit de corps the military's known for. Leaders by regulation are also barred from giving orders which they themselves cannot perform and are often challenged by their superiors and juniors to show that they can perform basic soldier skills to a high standard. This leads to unintentional team/respect building as senior leaders often have the youngest/newest/lowest ranking score their PT (physical training) tests or spend time on guard duty alongside lower enlisted. Leaders are also ultimately responsible for everything their subordinate does/doesn't do, and are expected to know them personally. If your sub is having an issue its your job to fix it regardless if it means a lot of extra work after-hours on your part. Rank therefore is somewhat of an illusion in many cases for all these reasons, yes its respected as a designation of someone that must be obeyed but simultaneously leaders are expected to maintain the respect of their subordinates or there's a good chance they will lose said rank.
Admittedly not female so probably not a great person to argue this point, however I'd believe most women to be like most men in that they're far more comfortable in the military than working in the civilian world due to the camaraderie. If you study veterans' mental health issues you may notice the significance of interpersonal relationships. The main reason for this that I've heard repeated many times is that as alluded above, in the military you know what to expect of others - respect and honesty. They may not like you but others will solidly respect you given reasonable effort. In the civilian world by comparison praise is rarely given, feelings are not discussed unless it involves negativity, and the means for promotion/success aren't clearly laid out in terms of skill, knowledge, or accomplishment but often involve office politics. There's often also little/no room for the candor necessary to improve.
From the Women in Engineering thread:
You're taking this a (logical) step further and drawing a conclusion about causation that I didn't really intend to address, simply bc the military culture of respect is complex enough that there really isn't any one significant, specific cause. My point was simply that the military IMHO is much more openly communicative (candor) to their benefit at the detriment of political correctness, which makes myself and many others question if the move toward "extreme HR" isn't detrimental to a company's culture.
To your point however - Somewhat yes but mostly no. I'm sure the custom & courtesy shown to rank helps subliminally keep respect forefront, but I believe the culture of respect is more shaped by each service's recognition of the human factors and the duty of leadership than anything. One of the first things you learn in basic training is that everybody makes mistakes, often large ones, but we're all in it together so holding grudges and negative feelings is a needless distraction. Ultimately the military owns everyone from the top officer to the lowest enlisted for X years, your individual rights have been mostly forfeited, everybody must obey orders given, and that will lead to a ton of personal sacrifice, separation from family and friends, and possibly even death. Early on you learn to be a good follower - to trust your leaders explicitly and without hesitation (blind faith) that you are capable of accomplishing what they say regardless if you believe the task is possible or yourself physically capable. This level of trust leads to all manner of negative stereotypes about the military being rigid and uncaring, yet quite the opposite is true. It seems like a waste sometimes to stand in formation with everybody multiple times daily, but good communication led to frequent quick praise, "good job at/on/doing...." which creates the fierce esprit de corps the military's known for. Leaders by regulation are also barred from giving orders which they themselves cannot perform and are often challenged by their superiors and juniors to show that they can perform basic soldier skills to a high standard. This leads to unintentional team/respect building as senior leaders often have the youngest/newest/lowest ranking score their PT (physical training) tests or spend time on guard duty alongside lower enlisted. Leaders are also ultimately responsible for everything their subordinate does/doesn't do, and are expected to know them personally. If your sub is having an issue its your job to fix it regardless if it means a lot of extra work after-hours on your part. Rank therefore is somewhat of an illusion in many cases for all these reasons, yes its respected as a designation of someone that must be obeyed but simultaneously leaders are expected to maintain the respect of their subordinates or there's a good chance they will lose said rank.
Admittedly not female so probably not a great person to argue this point, however I'd believe most women to be like most men in that they're far more comfortable in the military than working in the civilian world due to the camaraderie. If you study veterans' mental health issues you may notice the significance of interpersonal relationships. The main reason for this that I've heard repeated many times is that as alluded above, in the military you know what to expect of others - respect and honesty. They may not like you but others will solidly respect you given reasonable effort. In the civilian world by comparison praise is rarely given, feelings are not discussed unless it involves negativity, and the means for promotion/success aren't clearly laid out in terms of skill, knowledge, or accomplishment but often involve office politics. There's often also little/no room for the candor necessary to improve.
