water pumping windmill question 4

[inovermyhead]

Does anyone know the formula for calculating the distance a windmill will pump horizontally?
An 8ft windmill will lift water 180ft with a 1 7/8 cylinder pump. If my static water level is 60ft and the cylinder is @75FT I'm pumping up to the surface 60 ft. I would like to know how far I can pump after that point horizontally. Surely water will move easier horizontally than vertically.
other factors that may influence distance......
1 1/2" pvc pipe at the surface only
drop pipe is 1 1/2" galvanized
I'm at 220 ft above sea level
flow of water is not constant in the pipe
thank you

 

[BigInch]

And on the web. Since it was published in 1645, there are no present copyright worries that I know about, so its available as a free download from,

http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/2000

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[Artisi]

I started reading it about 6 months back in the original translated version and can tell you it is tough work - finishing it appears to be a long term project.

 

[BigInch]

No pain, no gain.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[Artisi]

More like brain strain.

 

[Apakrat]

My head pipe is 4' above the discharge point. I could extend it to about 20' above the discharge point or install a stuffing box.

I'm not sure what a stuffing box is _______

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuffing_box

In a conventional stuffing box, the seal itself is provided by packing rings, or a square cross-sectioned rope, made of greased flax, which is packed or wound tightly around the propeller shaft, sucker rod, and compressed in place with a threaded nut and spacer.

A stuffing box causes a negative, (drag), impact on the windmills capability.

Extending the head pipe 20', increases the difficulty of pulling sucker rods to get access to a pump during maintenance.

At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -

 

[Artisi]

" Extending the head pipe 20', increases the difficulty of pulling sucker rods to get access to a pump during maintenance."

The way round this problem is to use a rising discharge pipe fitted to the well-head external to the mill support frame,ie, 2 x 90 bends or similar.

 

[Apakrat]

use a rising discharge pipe fitted to the well-head external to the mill support frame,ie, 2 x 90 bends or similar.

True, but, then a stuffing box is needed, thus building in a negative drag on the windmill.​

At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -

 

[Artisi]

Do you really think you would be able to measure any significant drag on the mill pump rod as compared to other losses in gearbox and linkages etc.

 

[Apakrat]

Yes

At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -

 

[Artisi]

Well at least it comes free

 

[drywall]

I just got in on the tail of this but it looks to me like Apakrat has it right. That is you either need a stuffing box or to raise the discharge pipe up high on the windmill or the so called lift of 180' is never fully developed. Otherwise the mill will just raise enough head to spill out of the top end of the pipe. From my childhood memories, this distance is normally only about two feet which is not very much head.

 

[BigInch]

Yes. But remember its doing that at considerably higher flow than when its lifting to 180 ft. k * Q * H is constant for a given wind speed. Go for high Q's and H reduces.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[cvg]

remember this is a posative displacement pump. the discharge curve vs head is nearly vertical. In other words, you get nearly the same flow rate, regardless of the pressure. Regardless of whatever you do to reduce the drag on the pump or how high you make your tank, output will still remain nearly constant with any given wind speed. The biggest variable is the wind speed. If you want to increase output, siting the windmill where the wind is the strongest should be the number one priority.

 

[Apakrat]

- - - - siting the windmill where the wind is the strongest should be the number one priority.

Then connect it to a generator.

But, me thinks the number one priority would be to site the windmill at the best supply of water.​

At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -

 

[cvg]

well, apakrat, that goes without saying that there must be water within reasonable depth. and what is the point of the generator comment?

 

[BigInch]

Windmill pump curves for 3 models.

I've flipflopped it for you into typical centrifugal format.

Which look a lot like the power curves in my diagram attached above.

While they are "vertical"ly oriented, they are not so nearly as vertical as the typical pd pumps we usually see and with these there is quite a lot of variation in flow vs head. In fact flow variation with head doesn't look very constant at all no matter which way you flipflop the curves.

**********************
"Pumping accounts for 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25-50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities."-DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[mrodee]

inovermyhead,
I'm thinking about purchasing a water pumping windmill to maintain the water level of my pond. It was interesting to read the different thoughts regarding your application. Just curious how your project worked out. Thanks.

 

[backwards]

inovermyhead,

Maybe I'm just trying to over simplify the obvious but you will be the only person who can determine what an acceptable flow rate, be it GPM or GPH, at at acceptable distance will be, which seemed to be the original question. It seems that with all the variables involved it may be easier to just purchase some piping, preferably where you can return any unused for a refund, connect to the windmill, layout at different distances and each time check the flow output at different wind speeds. When optimal flow + acceptable wind speed + acceptable distance is achieved "X" marks the spot (of + aw + ad = X).

 

[inovermyhead]

mrodee,
I'm glad you asked! I'm wondering if I should start a new thread or stay here. I had decided to change the location of my earth tank and gravity feed my water to the tank. Now, I have a whole new set of problems.......My tank is now about 1/4 mile away from the windmill and I am gravity feeding the water to it. There is about a 30ft difference in elevation and my flow rate is pretty good. My output at the tank is slightly more than my output at the windmill in about a 10-15mph wind. The problem I am now trying to overcome is my 1/4 mile long drain pipe is airlocking at times. To overcome the problem I installed 4 flapper type check valves along the 1/4 mile run of pipe and ran a pipe over to my submersible pump hooked up to a landscape timer. WOW! This is getting complicated! See if you can follow.... When the timer comes on around ten in the morning the wind is usually blowing so the windmill is pumping, it only comes on for 2 minutes. This causes the 4 check valves to close which pressurizes the 1/4 mile long pipe and then shuts off. When the pressure drops in the line the check valves open allowing air to enter which keeps the 1/4 mile line from airlocking.(sometimes) I have not worked all the bugs yet and would like to get some thoughts from others...Any Ideas?

 

[Artisi]

Can you sketch the system showing levels and positions etc, scan it and attach as a file - it would go a long way to clarify what you are trying to achieve.