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Way of designing 8
- Thread starter linqur
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Biggadike
I am very sorry – it was not my intent at all.
“you think the way to beat them is to copy them then count me out.” - this is a wrong way. However, most of companies do this copycatting in design and manufacturing. I hope you are aware of this. Say – six sigma or lean manufacturing concepts – typical example of copycatting without even understanding.
“….but books have to be understood” – this is exactly my point. The problem is HOW?
Viktor
I am very sorry – it was not my intent at all.
“you think the way to beat them is to copy them then count me out.” - this is a wrong way. However, most of companies do this copycatting in design and manufacturing. I hope you are aware of this. Say – six sigma or lean manufacturing concepts – typical example of copycatting without even understanding.
“….but books have to be understood” – this is exactly my point. The problem is HOW?
Viktor
No problem Viktor,
Maybe its just me but I really don't like copying as a design technique. Thats not the same as saying don't use common components or don't stick to preferred methods. The machines we design often have to be the first of their kind. That means that I'm very sensitive to designers trying to make their own lives easy by copying old (often not very good) ideas rather than going the much more in-depth route I prefer and getting the optimum design.
To answer the second question, you understand the books by having a good foundation of all the core subjects the books are dealing with and understanding the topics on a fundamental level.
How do you do that? Study hard and make sure you understand it. What scares me is engineers delving into books on subjects they are shakey on, pulling data out of the books they have no way of evaluating and, because it came from a book, assuming that whatever they do with that data will produce the right result. That doesn't mean books are bad, they are great, just don't see them as a final answer.
Maybe its just me but I really don't like copying as a design technique. Thats not the same as saying don't use common components or don't stick to preferred methods. The machines we design often have to be the first of their kind. That means that I'm very sensitive to designers trying to make their own lives easy by copying old (often not very good) ideas rather than going the much more in-depth route I prefer and getting the optimum design.
To answer the second question, you understand the books by having a good foundation of all the core subjects the books are dealing with and understanding the topics on a fundamental level.
How do you do that? Study hard and make sure you understand it. What scares me is engineers delving into books on subjects they are shakey on, pulling data out of the books they have no way of evaluating and, because it came from a book, assuming that whatever they do with that data will produce the right result. That doesn't mean books are bad, they are great, just don't see them as a final answer.
Wow! I agree with you both. Biggadike, I have seen what you are talking about time and time again. It's the copycats that we have to worry about. We come up with good designs and others copy it. They say (whoever 'they' are) that imitation is the best form of flattery. I disagree. I'm not flattered when I spend months on a design only to have to fork out thousands for patents to try to protect my designs from copycats. I certainly know and follow the 'laws of physics' and of good design based on 'the books' but I like to think of myself as a rather unique thinker and designer. If there is a box then it's where the copycats live. I don't even see the proverbial box, let-alone stay in it. I'm often considered a rebel but I think it's by those who wish they had the courage to step out of line every now and then and try something new. I'm not saying design poorly as long as it's different. As stated before, we rely on sound principles. But where is the fulfillment in copying someone else’s work just to “keep up”? I’d rather live in poverty than never be able to express my ideas in my work. We’re not talking about putting bread in our children’s mouths here. Most of us could earn enough to pay the bills without having to “conform”.
People who were considered rebels or non-conformists did most of the great designs I know of. I’ll admit that many of them did not receive the just rewards for their innovations but that is because of the greedy copy-cats who seldom think for themselves or come up with an original idea. I have actually been able to make a decent living without having to give up my individuality.
This may rain fire on my head but (and I’m just asking) isn’t the conformist view a European idea? I’ll admit that a lot of U.S. citizens hate to be thought of as being part of the “collective”. I believe it’s our individual strengths that make us strong as a unit. I’ve always thought that a good engineer, designer, manager, whatever, will surround him/herself with people who have strengths where he/she is weak. It the insecure person who only surrounds him/herself with those that are weaker (or considered less intelligent).
Go ahead and blast me if you feel the need. I really would like everyone’s feedback. You see, I work for myself now. I do most of my work from my home and I kind of miss the iron-sharpening-iron environment. I’m glad I found this thread! Sorry to have gone off on a tangent again!
People who were considered rebels or non-conformists did most of the great designs I know of. I’ll admit that many of them did not receive the just rewards for their innovations but that is because of the greedy copy-cats who seldom think for themselves or come up with an original idea. I have actually been able to make a decent living without having to give up my individuality.
This may rain fire on my head but (and I’m just asking) isn’t the conformist view a European idea? I’ll admit that a lot of U.S. citizens hate to be thought of as being part of the “collective”. I believe it’s our individual strengths that make us strong as a unit. I’ve always thought that a good engineer, designer, manager, whatever, will surround him/herself with people who have strengths where he/she is weak. It the insecure person who only surrounds him/herself with those that are weaker (or considered less intelligent).
Go ahead and blast me if you feel the need. I really would like everyone’s feedback. You see, I work for myself now. I do most of my work from my home and I kind of miss the iron-sharpening-iron environment. I’m glad I found this thread! Sorry to have gone off on a tangent again!
Biggadike and Viktor...
What do you think R & D stands for???
Rip-off and Duplicate. It's unfortunate but when it comes to truly innovative design, most of what is out there tends to have it's roots in the forementioned play on the acronym.
Ram air for instance?!
What do you think R & D stands for???
Rip-off and Duplicate. It's unfortunate but when it comes to truly innovative design, most of what is out there tends to have it's roots in the forementioned play on the acronym.
Ram air for instance?!
Hmmm, as a hold off from AutoCAD days, I still only type with my left, and leave my right hand on the mouse.
Rousell, I'm not sure about the way Americans and Europeans think, I'm not sure it's a matter of "individual" or "collective" thoughts. There are strengths and weaknesses in "copying" a design. Many systems that exist today have existed in the past. When new processes or materials become available, they might be applied in different and "new" ways, but the basic building blocks (ie the mathmatics and physics) are all the same.
But many times, if you copy a design without first understanding the How and Why, you are doomed to failure. Many times, when you base a new design on a pre-existing design (ie copy) there are some concessions that have to be made. These concessions deal with how your company works, and where their expertise lays.
I was at a company once that copied a competitors product, at least the drive system for it. It was a total loss, as the design that was copied was based on an electrical system, and the company I was at only knew hydraulics. They thought it would be a simple thing to copy the design and swap out the electronics for hydraulics. They ended up shipping 60 units, and within 12 months, recalled every single one.
I was told once that anything you attempt to do has been attempted before, you only have to find the right book that describes the attempt that succeeded. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
Rousell, I'm not sure about the way Americans and Europeans think, I'm not sure it's a matter of "individual" or "collective" thoughts. There are strengths and weaknesses in "copying" a design. Many systems that exist today have existed in the past. When new processes or materials become available, they might be applied in different and "new" ways, but the basic building blocks (ie the mathmatics and physics) are all the same.
But many times, if you copy a design without first understanding the How and Why, you are doomed to failure. Many times, when you base a new design on a pre-existing design (ie copy) there are some concessions that have to be made. These concessions deal with how your company works, and where their expertise lays.
I was at a company once that copied a competitors product, at least the drive system for it. It was a total loss, as the design that was copied was based on an electrical system, and the company I was at only knew hydraulics. They thought it would be a simple thing to copy the design and swap out the electronics for hydraulics. They ended up shipping 60 units, and within 12 months, recalled every single one.
I was told once that anything you attempt to do has been attempted before, you only have to find the right book that describes the attempt that succeeded. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
Of course most people could "improve" on a design even (or especially) the original designer. I'm certainly not against "updating" a design to take advantage of new technology or even a design to improve a product. I'm just against right-out theft of an idea. It happens all the time. It's unfortunate.
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Woa!, this had heated while I was away!
My opinion about copies is that no matter how many patents to take (and by the way how much you do invest in lawyers) if your idea is good enough you will be copied. This will raise controversy again, buy I do not remember the name of the Italian guy who invented the telephone, but surely everybody remembers Alex Bell.
Here in South America, there is no working patent protection scheme. Yes we have the institutions, and we have a patents office, but in the practice it is even complicated for Microsoft to enforce them.
Reality is that most mechanical designs (profitable mechanical designs?) around here are one of a kind. I think that is partly a cause, and partly an effect of our lack of intellectual protection.
Experience is ok. It tempers you juvenile impetus to reinvent the wheel. However the most representative part of our work is done when we look things <<from out of the frame>> and come with the clever and unseen solution. I don’t know how many of you had contact with Feinman’s Books on Physics, but he changed my perception of the world. But to get this clever solution, you have to have seen enough working (and not working) devices to sort out the impossible solutions that come to your mind.
It is very seldom that we have a really, really, new idea. Most of our ideas are born from things we have seen before, only recombined and applied at a different machine.
The main problem is still to know which is the right solution, being yours, or not. Most times when you include your cost of redesign and its risks (when we don’t understand what we are doing, Murphy is an optimist advisor), things already made are cheaper.
I think that in some level we operate like Tolkien, who said something like this: All the things I have read and my linguistics studies are like the leaves that have fallen in the ground and decompose, is from these humus that my writings are born.
sancat
My opinion about copies is that no matter how many patents to take (and by the way how much you do invest in lawyers) if your idea is good enough you will be copied. This will raise controversy again, buy I do not remember the name of the Italian guy who invented the telephone, but surely everybody remembers Alex Bell.
Here in South America, there is no working patent protection scheme. Yes we have the institutions, and we have a patents office, but in the practice it is even complicated for Microsoft to enforce them.
Reality is that most mechanical designs (profitable mechanical designs?) around here are one of a kind. I think that is partly a cause, and partly an effect of our lack of intellectual protection.
Experience is ok. It tempers you juvenile impetus to reinvent the wheel. However the most representative part of our work is done when we look things <<from out of the frame>> and come with the clever and unseen solution. I don’t know how many of you had contact with Feinman’s Books on Physics, but he changed my perception of the world. But to get this clever solution, you have to have seen enough working (and not working) devices to sort out the impossible solutions that come to your mind.
It is very seldom that we have a really, really, new idea. Most of our ideas are born from things we have seen before, only recombined and applied at a different machine.
The main problem is still to know which is the right solution, being yours, or not. Most times when you include your cost of redesign and its risks (when we don’t understand what we are doing, Murphy is an optimist advisor), things already made are cheaper.
I think that in some level we operate like Tolkien, who said something like this: All the things I have read and my linguistics studies are like the leaves that have fallen in the ground and decompose, is from these humus that my writings are born.
sancat
Ah-ha! That gave me a thought sancat. It sometimes falls to a wise marketing group to make one's more costly apparatus profitable over (or in addition to) a equally good item more cheaply made than you can do yourself. Example: people will pay much more for an item with a Tommy Hilfiger, Nike, etc. label because of good marketing when equally good or sometimes better items are available for less. I think often times the items might be made by the same people at the same time - just a different tag. It’s the same thing for big-ticket items such as automobiles. Don't care for a Chevy? Then how about the same vehicle with a different front grill marketed under an entirely different name by a different label? Just a thought.
Sancat, one of our biggest competitors funds a large part of their group by successfull legal action against patent infringement (they use the money to buy their competitors companies!) so I'd say the US and UK patent system is in pretty good shape.
Two copying stories:
As a young designer I was asked to copy a mechanism from a competitors machine. It was very simple and it worked a treat. Problem was, in theory it shouldn't have been as good as it was. There was something extra in the process which just couldn't be seen (building jigs, tolerances, tiny geometric details, material spec, whatever)and in the end I designed a new mechanism which I understood which has worked fine ever since. I still don't know how it worked so well and I had it in my hand. I was glad I couldn't copy it and I was happy with my alternative and unique solution.
Competition copied one of our machines. It was industry standard for a while and they stole the basic layout and added a few whistles and bells. While they were doing that, we designed the replacement machine which featured a solution to a big problem area in the one they'd copied. Plus a few whistles and bells. Result was - their machine looked out of date when it was new and our new machine became the new industry standard.
Two copying stories:
As a young designer I was asked to copy a mechanism from a competitors machine. It was very simple and it worked a treat. Problem was, in theory it shouldn't have been as good as it was. There was something extra in the process which just couldn't be seen (building jigs, tolerances, tiny geometric details, material spec, whatever)and in the end I designed a new mechanism which I understood which has worked fine ever since. I still don't know how it worked so well and I had it in my hand. I was glad I couldn't copy it and I was happy with my alternative and unique solution.
Competition copied one of our machines. It was industry standard for a while and they stole the basic layout and added a few whistles and bells. While they were doing that, we designed the replacement machine which featured a solution to a big problem area in the one they'd copied. Plus a few whistles and bells. Result was - their machine looked out of date when it was new and our new machine became the new industry standard.
The problem with patents is that, to make them water-tight you have to divulge a lot of info on materials , processing etc. You are basically handing this info to your competitors on a plate. All they have to do is make a few changes (colour not being one), 'prove innovativeness' and presto, they have your idea. To be honest I have been on both sides of the fence on this one. The bottom line is that, it is the customer who wins with more competitive pricing. …….and it is flattering to have your idea copied by someone else. Speedy
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
"Tell a man there are 300 billion stars in the universe and he'll believe you. Tell him a bench has wet paint on it and he'll have to touch to be sure."
I am a pretend left hander according to my girlfriend (she being a true left hander). I write with my left hand but my strongest hand is my right and use it for drinking and playing tennis... I reckon that must be unique. Do I win a prize?
I recently went to a course about Product Design. The people who were talking were more interested in Product Time to Market than applying for patents that cost a lot of cash and having to put your cards on the table at such an early stage of development.
They thought that it was a fair trade off between getting your product to market quickly and making your cash, rather than paying for patents. Then the rest have to play catch up (they are going to copy your idea one way or another whether it is patented or not). While sombody else is copying your design you could be imroving it or working on something else.
It certainly makes sense on some products, especially these days with the throw away society in full swing. Your product might only have a life cycle of a couple of years so what is the point in patenting it, unless it comes back into fashion ten years later.
I recently went to a course about Product Design. The people who were talking were more interested in Product Time to Market than applying for patents that cost a lot of cash and having to put your cards on the table at such an early stage of development.
They thought that it was a fair trade off between getting your product to market quickly and making your cash, rather than paying for patents. Then the rest have to play catch up (they are going to copy your idea one way or another whether it is patented or not). While sombody else is copying your design you could be imroving it or working on something else.
It certainly makes sense on some products, especially these days with the throw away society in full swing. Your product might only have a life cycle of a couple of years so what is the point in patenting it, unless it comes back into fashion ten years later.
Scoobystu, I write with my right hand, but throw with my left. Darts, tennis, frisbee and shooting pool I can do with either hand equally well (or bad).
When we develope a new product, we know that we only have about 9-12 months before we start seeing knock-offs from our competitors. It's all part of the game of controlling market share. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
When we develope a new product, we know that we only have about 9-12 months before we start seeing knock-offs from our competitors. It's all part of the game of controlling market share. "The attempt and not the deed confounds us."
OK, I think we've cracked it now...
The question was 'How do you define your way of designing?'.
Our considered answer is...
1. Have some kind of thoughts in your head - perhaps 3D thoughts would be nice.
2. Understand these thoughts with stuff you have learned. Some people like to go to university to do learning. Some go to university and don't learn and some seem to find knowledge in other places. Perhaps books.
3. Spend a great deal of time and money obtaining and learning to use a 3D CAD station. If you are older and more experienced, you may want to use a pencil first. Either can be used to draw your thoughts. You may wish to use your left or right hand for drawing. If you use you left hand, you will have reason to believe that you are posessed of a rare talent.
4. You may want to be a woman at this stage. Aparently they're quite rare and highly sought after.
5. You may or may not wish to patent your thoughts. Money is involved one way or another.
Did I miss anything?
The question was 'How do you define your way of designing?'.
Our considered answer is...
1. Have some kind of thoughts in your head - perhaps 3D thoughts would be nice.
2. Understand these thoughts with stuff you have learned. Some people like to go to university to do learning. Some go to university and don't learn and some seem to find knowledge in other places. Perhaps books.
3. Spend a great deal of time and money obtaining and learning to use a 3D CAD station. If you are older and more experienced, you may want to use a pencil first. Either can be used to draw your thoughts. You may wish to use your left or right hand for drawing. If you use you left hand, you will have reason to believe that you are posessed of a rare talent.
4. You may want to be a woman at this stage. Aparently they're quite rare and highly sought after.
5. You may or may not wish to patent your thoughts. Money is involved one way or another.
Did I miss anything?
![[thumbsup2]](/data/assets/smilies/thumbsup2.gif "[thumbsup2] [thumbsup2]")
"The attempt and not the deed confounds us."Right,
1. The latest Forbes has a great section on innovation.
2. Copying ideas out of books is not designing. But I read the question as being about how different people design.
I freely admit that I am not one of those people who immediately sees a solution spring full blown into his / her mind.
I check to see what is already done that might relate, let it churn in my mind while I do other things, take the problem out occasionally and turn it over and over like a squirrel with a peanut deciding where to start.
I think that the looking at catalogs is just as valid as 3-D CAD as a means to design. Neither one is designing but both are tools for designing.
I’m not sure if taking a lot of commonly available pieces and making something new out of them counts as “real” designing or not. That is pretty much what I do.
I designed a manufacturing process using chemicals to come up with an effective process to replace one that uses cyanide. Going though a catalog I found a chemical called Ammonium Cobaltous Sulfate. I thought it might work because the Nitrogen in Ammonia might do the same job as the Nitrogen in Cyanide. I bought some and tried it. It improved the process. Was that designing or not? How about if there is controversy about why it worked? If I was designing and it did work but for the wrong reason was I really designing or just guessing?
3. Somewhere way up above it looks like two folks think they are arguing when it looks to me like they are agreeing from two different viewpoints.
Tom
Hey,
If I don’t post to you folks until then, you all have a good holiday.
As Ami the Finn says “Nice that you exist”
Tom
1. The latest Forbes has a great section on innovation.
2. Copying ideas out of books is not designing. But I read the question as being about how different people design.
I freely admit that I am not one of those people who immediately sees a solution spring full blown into his / her mind.
I check to see what is already done that might relate, let it churn in my mind while I do other things, take the problem out occasionally and turn it over and over like a squirrel with a peanut deciding where to start.
I think that the looking at catalogs is just as valid as 3-D CAD as a means to design. Neither one is designing but both are tools for designing.
I’m not sure if taking a lot of commonly available pieces and making something new out of them counts as “real” designing or not. That is pretty much what I do.
I designed a manufacturing process using chemicals to come up with an effective process to replace one that uses cyanide. Going though a catalog I found a chemical called Ammonium Cobaltous Sulfate. I thought it might work because the Nitrogen in Ammonia might do the same job as the Nitrogen in Cyanide. I bought some and tried it. It improved the process. Was that designing or not? How about if there is controversy about why it worked? If I was designing and it did work but for the wrong reason was I really designing or just guessing?
3. Somewhere way up above it looks like two folks think they are arguing when it looks to me like they are agreeing from two different viewpoints.
Tom
Hey,
If I don’t post to you folks until then, you all have a good holiday.
As Ami the Finn says “Nice that you exist”
Tom
Biggadike,
You got it totally right, your wise words cover almost all!
I would add
6. Even if you are an excellent designer, Murphy will find a way into your project, no matter if you followed or not Biggadike wise words.
Tom,
I think that the fact that you realized something that nobody saw before, makes you not only a designer, but also an inventor. Controversy doesnt matter as long as the thing work. You got the Aha! factor. (I would patent that, seems pretty useful, and seems that in these forums there are lots of copiers...ha ha ha...)
From my experience you get the Aha! when you are away of our work (in my case in the shower, no cad, no paper...)
Have everybody a Merry Xtmas, and a New Year better that the one that just passed.
sancat
You got it totally right, your wise words cover almost all!
I would add
6. Even if you are an excellent designer, Murphy will find a way into your project, no matter if you followed or not Biggadike wise words.
Tom,
I think that the fact that you realized something that nobody saw before, makes you not only a designer, but also an inventor. Controversy doesnt matter as long as the thing work. You got the Aha! factor. (I would patent that, seems pretty useful, and seems that in these forums there are lots of copiers...ha ha ha...)
From my experience you get the Aha! when you are away of our work (in my case in the shower, no cad, no paper...)
Have everybody a Merry Xtmas, and a New Year better that the one that just passed.
sancat
I like Biggadike's summary also, it shows diversity in the way we approach a problem or go about completing a design. I am thankful that we are diverse, hence our success. Not a problem will go unsolved as long as there are so many different approaches to solve it.
Even frustrated sarcasm has a place in solving some problems - personally evidenced by the fact that I have managed to remain married to one person for 15 years now. This is a lengthy design, one that I learn about as I go.
Merry Christmas everyone, and have great New Year!!
Even frustrated sarcasm has a place in solving some problems - personally evidenced by the fact that I have managed to remain married to one person for 15 years now. This is a lengthy design, one that I learn about as I go.
Merry Christmas everyone, and have great New Year!!
StarrRider
Mechanical
I was recently asked this question at an interview for another job and I regret to say I didn't answered it in a satisfactory manner. What I should have said was this.
First. In every project I have worked on, we have a brain storming session which defines what we are trying to accomplish and provides some practical solutions.
Second. While I do think in 3D, the next step is to nail down all of the KNOWNs and I do that in CAD. It has to be THIS high, it can only be THIS big, and it has to travel THIS far and do THAT. This allows me to SEE where the problems will be and find a solution.
Third. I also look to see what has already been done. This is a cost saving process since any parts that can be reused or purchased will reduce the final cost. I also spend a lot of time on the web searching for parts and resorces that I can use. My 'Work Related' directory in 'Favories' is quite extensive and has been growing for years.
Forth. I have a general picture of the finished machine, but I look for the most critical areas and solve them first. I have never copied a design (I hate limitations) but a good idea is still a good idea and when I see something I can use it, why reinvent the wheel. I also talk to the people in the Machine Shop a lot and value their input.
In chess I normally have a plan of attack and can see a few moves ahead, 3 or 4, not 30 or 40. A Grand Master might be able to see that far ahead but it is beyond me. The same thing applies to seeing a finished machine from at the start of a project. Visualization is not the problem, I dream in 3D and many solutions magically appear after a good nights sleep (ask my wife). The problem is that with a complex machine there may be 300 or 400 parts to keep track of (not counting fasteners).
From 13 to 18 my family ran a Garage and Salvage company. In the Navy I studied electronics and became a Sonar Tech. I later worked in Machine Shops and Welding Shops and eventually went into Drafting. I've spent nearly 20 years in engineering, held the position of a Electro/Mechanical Designer for over 10 years and had the TITLE of Mechanical Engineer for 3 years.
Still, I have no degree so what does that make me?
Lee
First. In every project I have worked on, we have a brain storming session which defines what we are trying to accomplish and provides some practical solutions.
Second. While I do think in 3D, the next step is to nail down all of the KNOWNs and I do that in CAD. It has to be THIS high, it can only be THIS big, and it has to travel THIS far and do THAT. This allows me to SEE where the problems will be and find a solution.
Third. I also look to see what has already been done. This is a cost saving process since any parts that can be reused or purchased will reduce the final cost. I also spend a lot of time on the web searching for parts and resorces that I can use. My 'Work Related' directory in 'Favories' is quite extensive and has been growing for years.
Forth. I have a general picture of the finished machine, but I look for the most critical areas and solve them first. I have never copied a design (I hate limitations) but a good idea is still a good idea and when I see something I can use it, why reinvent the wheel. I also talk to the people in the Machine Shop a lot and value their input.
In chess I normally have a plan of attack and can see a few moves ahead, 3 or 4, not 30 or 40. A Grand Master might be able to see that far ahead but it is beyond me. The same thing applies to seeing a finished machine from at the start of a project. Visualization is not the problem, I dream in 3D and many solutions magically appear after a good nights sleep (ask my wife). The problem is that with a complex machine there may be 300 or 400 parts to keep track of (not counting fasteners).
From 13 to 18 my family ran a Garage and Salvage company. In the Navy I studied electronics and became a Sonar Tech. I later worked in Machine Shops and Welding Shops and eventually went into Drafting. I've spent nearly 20 years in engineering, held the position of a Electro/Mechanical Designer for over 10 years and had the TITLE of Mechanical Engineer for 3 years.
Still, I have no degree so what does that make me?
Lee
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