weighing two job offers-HELP 6

[fermjohnp]

Hi all,

I am posting this thread to get some insight into how i should approach this problem if it occurs.

I recently interviewed with two companies who are almost direct competitors in the machining industry. With the one job i would be trained at the facility which is very close to where i currently live. The other position is similir but there is a 6 month training program in another state. I will learn with 10-15 other engineers and we will then each become experts in our respective territories. With this opportunity i will be away from my girlfriend for 6 months but it is close enough that i will be able to see her on the weekends and we will get some time off for holidays. I will be put up in a apartment (that will be payed for) with the other guys and we will develop some comradery as we progress through the program which will be benefical for us all.

Both positions are application engineering related.

So the question is which one is sweeter if i am offered both jobs? And can i Negotiate salary?

How do i negotiate? Can i tell each company that i have an offer from a competitor? Are there drawbacks to this? I never have had the delemia if this is to happen.

Its worth mentioning that the job that will take me away for 6 months pays hourly (vs other which is salary) and there will be overtime which will help boost my income. I am extremely blessed to have had both interviews go so well.

Thank you in advance for all your comments.

thanks.

 

[patprimmer]

From the very little data provided, I would take the 6 months away at a proper training venue option. If the company pays you to be there including accommodation, you should be heavily focused on study anyway, so some separation from the girl friend weeknights is a plus. The weekends will be all the sweeter if the relationship is sound. If it is not sound enough to stand the test, better off finding out sooner rather than later.

Regards
Pat
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[pmover]

first off, congrats.

only you can make the decision that makes you the happiest or gives you what you want.

so, you are "hoping" for an employment offer and want answers . . .

everything in life is negotiable, so is income. i would not recommend getting into a competitive bidding situation with potential employers. you may end up not liking the results. should you turn down an offer and are asked why, be forthright. if they want you, the employer may consider more $ or otherwise.

i'd suggest you tabulate, compare, and evaluate the pro's and con's of each employers offer and then make a determination.

good luck!
-pmover

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Got a quarter??

Flip it and pick which one!!

 

[bigTomHanks]

When I was younger I took a job that required almost constant travel while I was in a training phase. The expectation for the position was for me to learn how the whole company works from top to bottom and then I would be assigned to one location. At first the job was exciting with all the travel and making new friends. After a while no matter how good the accommodations were I was not happy. The work life balance got way out of whack and the expectation was to work yourself to death. This position was straight salary and I got no extra pay for traveling or overtime. Needless to say the company didn't really need to work us the way they did but had to, to trap some people into the lifestyle. I quit after the training phase and moved on to much greener pastures but it really made me appreciate the regular 9 to 5 day job.

So if the relocation job really is temporary and the end result job is excellent then I say go for it. Be careful though because sometimes these companies sell these jobs well and one day you will wake up and realize how bad that are being taken advantage of.

 

[jpankask]

You can always negotiate...but the company may not. It's OK to tell the company you have another offer you are weighing, is their offer the best, etc. Do NOT tell them who your other offer is from, or even that it's a competitor. The only drawback is that you risk losing an offer if you appear to be asking for more than is appropriate.

As for which one you take, you are really the only one who can make that decision. There is so much that factors into the decision that nobody else can know. Of prime importance (if your relationship is important to you), do you think your relationship with your girlfriend is strong enough...and do you want to test it. For some, that time apart will make the weekends that much better. For others, the time apart may result in spending that time with other people, or realizing that you don't care as much for that person because you really don't miss being with them.

 

[zdas04]

I think that there is some really sound advice above, but I'd like to throw in a twist. I have rarely seen a good engineer that spend their entire career in one place--good engineers will either outgrow or fail to measure up eventually in any job. If you start with the assumption that you are a "good engineer" then you have the corollary assumption that you won't spend your career in one town.

The advice I give folks I know is to "get the hell out of Dodge the first opportunity you have". The longer you stay in your home town, the more comfortable it becomes and the harder it is to take the step out of a job you've outgrown (I don't mean that you HAVE to change companies every 3-5 years, but you DO need to change the widgets you are looking after every few years or you'll be "that guy" who doesn't have 20 years experience, he has 3 months experience 80 times).

I'd take the one that starts out with you living out of town just to establish in your own mind that you can leave home and hearth.

I wouldn't put too much faith in the hourly vs. salaried differentiation. I keep seeing hourly engineers "encouraged" not to report (but still to work) overtime "for the good of the project". At the end of the day there isn't actually that much difference. I've never worked hourly for a company (but of course my consulting business charges hourly, without overtime), but what I've seen as an outsider doesn't look all that sweet for non-exempt professionals ("exempt" means that you are "exempt from the burden of collecting overtime pay"). Engineering overtime is just too visible on a project-cost report and project managers work hard to suppress it, legally or not.

David

 

[Latexman]

6 months away from "home" in another state on the company's dime should not influence your decision, IMO. Will you enjoy working long term for Company A or Company B is the question. Consider the PEOPLE, sustainability of the company, job, PEOPLE, money, benefits, PEOPLE, office politics, degree of independence you'll have, PEOPLE, stress, the technical challenge, and last but not least - the PEOPLE you'll work with/for.

In 33 years I've worked in 4 different states (one of them 3 different times) and 3 different countries (one 12,500 miles from "home" for 3 years) so a 6 month temporary assignment should not carry much weight. Consider the things that will make you happy long term. To me - the people have been the key.

Good luck,
Latexman

 

[jmw]

Short answer:
List and compare Pros and cons and then consider gut reaction.

But:
The time to negotiate a salary and benefits is now. Not some way down the line when you realise or think you've been had (or simply failed to ask the right questions).

The interview is as much about you seeing if they are suitable employers as them seeing if you are suitable as an employee.
Explore the options, they expect this at the interview and may wonder if you don't.
Of course, there is a difference between being up front and asking and with being demanding and greedy.
If you can research salaries typical for the job you will be better able to judge.
But if the starting salary is not so good, and they are investing in training - meaning they won't see any benefit for some time for their outlay - then it is perfectly legitimate to enquire about prospects, career progression etc. and to balance the cost of training against how it will benefit you in future.
One of the downsides of the intensive training might be that they expect to keep you in the one job for some time. That may seem a fair exchange for the investment but be sure you ask the right questions about it.
As ever, list what you want to know and make sure you cover everything. No brownie points will be lost if you take a crib sheet in to make sure you ask all the right questions (thoroughness is a trait they ought to value).

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[jmw]

PS if you want to know anything, just ask.
The same goes for salary. SInce this is important, you have to ask.
And, if you don't ask you don't get.
I think you have to be very careful about using "other prospects" as a lever. It is OK to let them know you are looking at other opportunities and asking more detailed questions will fit this.
If they know you are looking at more than them and asking the right questions but don't put them under the hammer, then you leave it to them to judge how much they want you. IF they want you they need to look for ways to sweeten the pot off their own initiative.
They may not appreciate being put into an auction as they don't like to be forced to raise the ante and it may raise doubts about whether you will always be looking for the greener grass and in which case they may think twice about training someone who will then up sticks on them.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[TheTick]

If your girlfriend is holding you back, you need to dump her. If you're afraid to be awayy from her, she needs to dump you.

 

[casseopeia]

It seems the real question is, 'what do I decide if I am offered/negotiate a really great, hard-to-pass-up deal that requires a 6 month stay out-of-state.' If the offers are equal, there is less of a dilemma isn't there? I can fully appreciate a reluctance to move away from home, even if it is temporary. Here are the things that I would ask myself;

Do I have obligations at home (pets, elderly parents, maintenance on a home) that can be transferred for 6 months?

How much would it cost to pay to have these obligations covered while I'm gone?

Would I be going to a place that I've always wanted to see, would it be an adventure, is it exciting, etc. This requires a different answer if you are located for example in Ottumwa, Iowa and were looking at an all-expenses-paid training in Chicago, Illinois, vs the other way 'round. (no offense intended to those who may be in Ottumwa.)

Can I tolerate missing my hobbies/social activities/outside interests at home for 6 months? Looks frivolous, but maybe you are an amateur radio broadcaster and just scored a rare opportunity to do the farm report on local radio in Ottumwa. (Really, no disrespect intended)

Things NOT to consider in you decision is the girlfriend. If your relationship isn't strong enough to last through 6 months of training with weekend visits, then you are just delaying the inevitable.


"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[LiteYear]

I'm glad casseopeia has mentioned some realities. Perhaps it really doesn't matter to most people, but the things that make me happy (and I'm a happy guy) are: my house, my cat, my soldering iron, my soccer team, tutoring, soccer coaching, my fridge, my gf 5 mins away, my bike, my other bike, my motorbike, my friends, my local pub, my computer, my bed, my gym, my daily routine, and my job. These things have take years to get just right. Losing all those things for six months would be depressing for me. And I mean "losing" - none of them can be enjoyed in any worthwhile fashion when your weekend is filled with traveling and catching up.

Some (most?) people love that lifestyle. If you don't have anything established, other than your gf, then it's much easier. I wouldn't consider 6 months specific training worth it. You'll learn where ever you are.

 

[patprimmer]

6 months in a small focused group of hand selected peers will teach you more than on the job or uni could in 3 years, especially because it is remote from all the things just listed.

Regards
Pat
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[Guest262653]

6 months without your girlfriend? Man, I wouldn't do that if you're really into her. Jobs come and go. The woman of your life comes once. Is she? It's up to you to decide.

Don't trust all the bull about great job opportunities. I'm sick of all these great life lessons about how important is your job and how many sacrifices you must do to achieve stardom. We've all seen that when the problems do come along it's not your job that keeps you going, it's your support system (i.e. gf, wife, other wife, lover, other lover, kids, pets, parents, saxophone lessons, model plane building, etc, etc...). I tend to stick to mine.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I don't know, avs... my wife takes exception to my other wife. That kind of support system will destroy any happiness inside or outside of work...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[zdas04]

Latexman provided a keen insight--at the end of the day the people you work with have a significant impact on your quality of life. Problem is that any population is fluid. I've had wonderful bosses that worked hard to create an environment that was great to work in. I've had other bosses that felt that if anyone was happy then they weren't doing their job. Same with co-workers. I've had peers that were just a joy to work with, and I've had co-workers that I'd rather not have been joined at the hip with. All this was in basically the same job. So you pick a job because the boss says all the right words, get moved in and start, and that boss goes to his next assignment on the other side of the world. How's the "people" thing then?

The folks that think that their favorite bike path is the ONLY bike path in the world that they'll enjoy are rationalizing. The people that think that the soccer team they mentor is the only soccer team on the planet that needs a mentor are rationalizing. The people that think that their pick-up game is the only pick-up game they'll ever find are rationalizing. I used to be heavily involved in Boy Scouts. I was once instrumental in chartering a new troop and helping to define the new troops personality and "traditions". Then I transferred out of state. Know what? In the new state there were Boy Scout troops that needed adult volunteers and I was welcomed into one. And the old troop doesn't even remember who I was (many of the boys who started the troop now have boys in scouts, it has been nearly 20 years).

The point is that people live their lives wherever the hell they are. Girlfriends become wives or memories, they don't stay in limbo forever. Girlfriends and wives have been successfully moved from one location to another. Milloins of girlfriends and wifes have successfully dealt with long-distance relationships. At least as many girlfriends and wifes have not dealt successfully with short-distance relationships.

If you let your "now" limit your future, then you will reduce your chance of achieving your potential. I always treat the place I'm living as a detail. I've I've built personal relationships that are important to me, then those relationships will continue if I (or they) move away. If I do stuff I like in a place; that is great, but I know I'll find stuff that I like in the next place. It is just details.

David

 

[PhilBW]

You are trying to focus your decision on what happens the first six months on the job. Instead, you should be looking at what will happen for the several years after the first six months. It doesn't matter what the training is like if you hate the job when the training is over.

 

[Maui]

fermjohnp, we don't have enough information. In order to form an educated opinion about which job would be better for you in particular, we need to know about what your personal preferences are, what you find interesting about the work that you do, what you dislike, and what you need in terms of a support network outside of the job itself. I took what I thought would be a once in a lifetime offer a few years ago. The pay was well beyond anything that I had ever imagined I would be earning, and the work itself I had done for years for a competitor. I wasn't thrilled about where the job was located, and didn't really know very many people in that area, but figured I would make friends and get settled in after a short transition period. It seemed like a slam-dunk. Then I got there. It was by far the most dysfunctional company I had personally ever worked for. I hated it, and quit after 2 months.

Sometimes, it's not what they tell you during the interview, but what they don't tell you that really matters. Keep your eyes open, and don't blindly accept that what they are telling you is the gospel truth. There may be more to the story than they let on.

Maui

http://www.EngineeringMetallurgy.com

 

[patprimmer]

Maui

It's pretty hard to judge if a workplace is dysfunctional from a job interview.

Regards
Pat
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