Well head noise issue. 1

[itsmoked]

I have a client's well that was in service but the guy had hung the 1-1/2HP pump 170 ft down by SCH40 PVC using the standard crummy slip to MALE threaded adapter couplings 5 years ago. A few weeks ago the pump that normally runs about 30 minutes once a week was seen running as the owner went to bed and then found running when they got up in the morning!

I was asked to check it and found that it was drawing the correct current but nothing was coming out of the well head. Further investigation showed the first adapter coupling had sheared dropping the entire motor pump and pipe riser down the well to the bottom where it dutifully ran for 8 hours in fountain mode all contained within the well.

We pulled the pump and since the hassle was so great replaced the entire pump and riser using sch80 threaded riser pipe and SS female/female couplings. The new pump was a Berkeley pump identical to the original Gould that came out.

It pumps the same 15gal/minute into the same 230 feet of dynamic head.

The problem is that instead of being dead silent at the well head like the typical well I'm greeted with the sound in the clip provided below. I'm pretty sure it's the check valve fluttering. Why?!? Why now? How do I stop it?

Do note that my camera greatly exaggerates the actual sound level of The Noise. The correct level is what you'd hear if you turned down your PC's sound to the lowest level that you can still detect the noise.

Well Head Noise Video

This is the checkvalve.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[Compositepro]

It could just be the pipe in the well casing vibrating and tapping the sides. Are there centralizers on the pipe?

 

[bimr]

Is it possible to run a camera down to the bottom. Maybe the pump motor is rubbing against against the casing pipe.

 

[itsmoked]

Ok BI.

Comp; There is a torque arrestor at the pump that centers it. And then the well cap you see above also centers it. So I don't think that's the issue. Oh, also you can feel the noise rather easily near the %!#$(@ check-valve.

bimr; See Comp above.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[georgeverghese]

Is there another check valve at the inlet to that storage tank at the top of the hill ?

 

[Artisi]

Can the check valve be positioned somewhere else in the system, ie. near the final discharge?

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[TugboatEng]

If you make any modifications, please put 90 bends with unions on both legs near serviceable components. You'll thank me later.

Otherwise, you can simply cut the check valve out and use a pair of these to reinstall.

Pipe Joints, 316 Stainless Steel, for 1.315" Pipe OD

https://www.mcmaster.com/2397K12

They have a biting ring so they act as a rigid section of pipe once installed. Lube everything up with some silicone grease to facilitate removal in the future.

 

[LittleInch]

What exactly is at the end of the pipe at the tank? Photo?

The only thing I can recall is a ball cock valve causing pulsations which are just being exhibited at the valve.

These valves appear to be sprung loaded poppet type valves. The flow velocity is high enough to open them and keep them stable. You can't ignore the possibility of damage or something stuck in there.

The results seem to show that the valve is still working.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[1503-44]

One other thing. Is the frequency changing with flow rate (at constant pump rpm)?

 

[itsmoked]

Is there another check valve at the inlet to that storage tank at the top of the hill ?

Nope. Just a gate valve.

Can the check valve be positioned somewhere else in the system, ie. near the final discharge?

No. Code requires one at the wellhead regardless of any others elsewhere.

use a pair of these to reinstall

Those are sweet!

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[georgeverghese]

Think you have guessed the flowrate from this Berkeley pump to be 12-15gpm from the Gould pump cure you posted ( and not by actual flow measurement). My 2 cents(now that we have discounted chatter from a check valve at the hilltop tank) is perhaps this Berkeley pump isnt actually pushing 12-15gpm but some flow much lower that causes this wellhead check valve to chatter. The pressure shown on that wellhead guage of 100psig is possibly actually the backpressure from that head tank at the hilltop, and not the developed pressure from the Berkeley pump. Forward flow when the pump actually produces some small flow, and reverse flow when the pump discharge pressure decays and flow reverses from the head tank.

The replacement Berkeley pump may not be pushing the required flow for one of many possible reasons:
a) Pump damage
b) Some debris left behind downhole from the old GS pump that is choking flow to this new pump

 

[itsmoked]

Follow up!

Went to hilltop tank and choked the flow down until head pressure went from 99psi to 102psi with no change in the check-valve flutter at all. Then upon asking my help to open it back up they turned it the wrong way driving the head-pressure to 150psi before figuring it out and opening it instead. During the 'excursion' (makes me think of Chernobyl) the check-valve only changed sound slightly but not fundamentally.

Next I removed the hardware from the other side of the Tee. The hosebib and the pressure gauge in case they provided 'flex' to allow the flutter.
No improvement.

Removed gorgeous Ring Necked Snake from well pit.

Pulled the downstream pipe from the check-valve then had to drain it because of the 100psi behind it. Couldn't depress it because of the 100lbs pushing on it. Hammered a screwdriver into one edge. Water geysered. Left and came back 30 minutes later, no change. Drove it in further. 10 minutes... Drove a second one in on the other side of the gate. Had to lay there with my hand over it holding in the screw drivers and guiding the considerable flow away from everything for 35 minutes until it rather quickly dropped to a trickle over about 10 seconds.

Pulled the check and installed a new one. Played musical pipe nipples and couplings for a while until we got it the exact right length to allow mate-up of the union halves. Fired up the well and blessed silence. Could hear nothing but felt a slight vibration. Current eventually returned to 10.9A (instead of 10.8) New check-valve opens a few PSI easier. More flow - another 1/10A

Looking at the removed CV the spring appeared to have been broken. It was a pretty stout spring wrapped in the body perimeter and clearly had a layup anomaly. I suspect that made one side have a lower tension causing a pressure and hence flow asymmetry across its face that caused the flutter.


Nice call BI and mk3223 on the broken spring.



Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[LittleInch]

And me... "You can't ignore the possibility of damage or something stuck in there"...

But thanks for the update and I'm glad I don't run the risk of those snakes on a regular basis. I thought for a moment that you had pulled the snake out of the well piping....

That must be decent sized and length pipe up to the tank if it took an hour to drain it. Maybe you should have added a drain valve while you were at it for next time...

Photo of the broken valve?

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[1503-44]

1503-44 (Petroleum) 2 May 21 21:40
"I'll bet on a broken spring or clapper."

2 Days late LI, but still OK. You're working a real job.
LittleInch (Petroleum) 4 May 21 07:51

Keith, how high above and distance from the PI is the tank?
I was doing a model of it (seeing if I could figure out why the check valve broke) and had a hard time getting the PI pressures to match.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[Artisi]

Good result and knowledge for some, agree photo would be nice just to round off the discussion.
As for the snake, poisonous or friendly?

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[3DDave]

Not likely poisonous - depends how one cooks them. Certainly not venomous.

 

[Artisi]

Ok, venomous

It is a capital mistake to theorise before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts. (Sherlock Holmes - A Scandal in Bohemia.)

 

[1503-44]

Keith, what is the diameter of the hole there?
Are we sure that you can get a sustained flow of 15gpm?
Do you know the drawdown and replenishment characteristics?

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[itsmoked]

That must be decent sized and length pipe up to the tank if it took an hour to drain it. Maybe you should have added a drain valve while you were at it for next time...

You can bet I was wishing there'd been one. Way up in the sticks I didn't feel like another day being added to the wrenching. The freakin check-valve had already done enough damage to my schedules.

Pictures?

how high above and distance from the PI is the tank?

It's very hard to tell because the sketch of it all is not dimensioned and the distances are such that you drive between all these points and you drive circuitous and sometimes very steep routes at that.

That said and from what I know I'd estimate the 1-1/4" Sch40 pipe run is horizontally about 700ft and vertically about 190~200ft.

Makes me wonder if the check-valve pulsations caused the crap PVC adapter at the very top that failed, to fail because of it. Chicken or the egg.

As for the snake, poisonous or friendly?[/quote ]
They are very very rarely seen because they're very shy and fully nocturnal. However they apparently range from Mexico to Western Canada.

They are venomous but are so small as to be unable to deliver and hence are harmless to humans and only dangerous to bugs and other small snakes.



Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com

 

[1503-44]

That's a bunch longer and higher than I imagined. I was thinking that there is a potential for waterhammer, so I started trying to model the thing, but was having a hard time keeping flow limited to 15gpm. That extra head will help. I have never modeled such a tiny system with 1.25 inch pipe, so I wasn't confident with the results. Thought I might have missed some decimal points somewhere.

Its a lot more elevation change relative to pipe diameter than I'm used to, which could make gravity effects more pronounced. Such as a high head, gravity powered, flow reversal when the pump stops. Anyway, I thought I'd have a look.

Usually its the impact of a hammer caused elsewhere that breaks the check valves, but it could happen.

Statements above are the result of works performed solely by my AI providers.
I take no responsibility for any damages or injuries of any kind that may result.

 

[itsmoked]

Keith, what is the diameter of the hole there?
Are we sure that you can get a sustained flow of 15gpm?
Do you know the drawdown and replenishment characteristics?

Dia of the hole?? I'm guessing the check-valve?
All the other pipe is 1-1/4" PVC Sch 40 so the ID = 1.380"
CV I.D. is really hard because of all the apparatus involved but the O.D. of the gate hole is 1.06" and the gate takes 9 ounces to unseat and 18 to fully open.

I know the piping up to the tank from the top of the well has (nine) 90° bends and (two or three3) 45°s.

Sustained flow is ~12.5gal/minute.

The pump inlet is set at 182 feet from the top of the casing.
The recharged well sits at ~140ft from the top of the casing.

My best estimate looking at the existing pulled-out piping and listening to the recharge:
The well draws down after 30 minutes of draw to, I estimate, 155ft

It took about 4.5 minutes to see the current drop to steady-state on refilling the drained pipe back to the tank thru the check-valve.

Keith Cress
kcress -

http://www.flaminsystems.com