What defines stealing? 6

[MadMango]

In context to thread732-316391

Is offering a separate and different proposal of work to a client "stealing" when it is the client that selects which proposal suits them the best? Or is it the access to the client in the first place that is the ethical dilemma?

"Art without engineering is dreaming; Engineering without art is calculating."


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[moltenmetal]

We have a structural consultant that we use repeatedly for our projects. We've "trained" him by using him repeatedly for the same sorts of tasks, giving him feedback on what worked and what didn't work so well for us. He does good work, and periodic inquiries with others in his industry verifies that he's charging a fair market price for his work for us. As clients, we feel we have a lot invested in the guy- but we don't have enough of that specialist work to employ him directly.

We've now followed him from company A to company B and now on to company C. In his industry, switching companies is the only way he's going to get a raise.

Are you telling me that it was unethical of him to inform us that he had switched companies? Which time? The first time only? Or both times?

Some people here are holding others to a ridiculous standard in my opinion. Where there are clearly spelled-out noncompete arrangements negotiated prior to employment, with geographic and expiry terms, that's a different matter- but in general employment?

Keeping track of which business cards I got while meeting clients on the job, and which I got at conferences or tradeshows? Honestly?! Get real- that's NUTS.

 

[MiketheEngineer]

At the end of the day - you have to rest your pretty head on the pillow and get some sleep --- can you do that??

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Some of the guys at Enron seemed to get enough sleep...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[patprimmer]

Some people do that easier after they succeed in ripping someone off. They are actually proud of their skills in that department.

Others justify it as normal business procedures and denigrate those who disagree as being naive. They often have extreme opposite views depending on which side of the fence they sit. Some of that seems to be in this thread even with a lack of pointy hair MBA types or computer salesmen.

Yes they do sleep fine as do I on the occasion I justify my actions in my mind that others may object to.

Regards
Pat
See FAQ731-376 for tips on use of eng-tips by professional engineers &

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[jmw]

Companies that worry about these things do something about these things.
Companies do not worry about contact lists.
They do nothing about it.

They do worry about client lists.
They do protect these.

Contact lists are transient tools everyone creates all the time and which have no intrinsic value to the company. They don't give a damn what happens to them.

The client list is the life blood of the company.
Take this and you will be stealing. If you can access it.

Maybe that's where the difficulty lies?

Let's not pretend companies don't worry about trivia or that if they consider something stealing or detrimental to their interests they can not or will not do something about it.

The trivia pursuit departments, management's attack dogs are IT and HR.
These people thrive on nit-picking mind numbing trivia. They love lists and petty instructions.
If management said: "Contact lists. Guard them. Good doggies." then you wouldn't be able to take a contact list.
If you want to stop terrorists travelling between countries, or carrying bombs about then give the responsibility to IT and HR and take it away from Homeland security.

IT is perfectly adept at interfering with all sorts of actions from playing games, searching for jobs, watching porn etc.
If its on your PC/laptop/workstation a copy is on the server and on backup somewhere. They have a copy of everything whether they want it or not.
They can and do track activity.

HR can easily both do something and make it clear this is a no-no.
They can make visible their intentions. They may be sloppy about succession planning (people dying without permission) but they are well versed in exit/termination procedures.

The list the company worries about is its client list.
This is a list of clients who have accounts with the company and which details their order history, contains all their account information and transaction records, bank details, D&B reports etc. It is commercially sensitive.
The clients on this list have financial status. Money is invested in them as well as them being a source of money.

Access to this list is limited in any case.
It is controlled by the finance director and his minions and they are the ones who create it and maintain it and guard it with IT's help. Unless you have log on rights to the finance directory on the server you ain't gonna get near it.

Accessing this list and copying it would be stealing.

But if you are thinking about the sort of contact list we each generate in our day to day dealings with customers, that is something else.

This list is of trivial importance to the company.

(Of course, we still have to find out if the law says it is stealing. I note, Mike_the_Engineer, you have not provided, as Cass did, some references for your claim that "Taking customer lists is STEALING and has been upheld in most courts of law!! . and if you possibly refer here to the client list and not a contact list?)

Pretty well anyone in a company with dealings with clients will have their own contact lists that they make themselves.

Of course people use Outlook etc to create such lists.
Of course the company then ends up with copies. But they are not sensitive and it is debatable to what extent the company owns them and you do not. Since the company always has a copy who gives a damn?
This is not the client list.

When I left my last company, Management had an HR list of termination actions.
Lots of trivia.
We only struggled with the line about returning PPE.
PPE was what HR called it. (My manager was not about to ask HR what it meant and he simply ticked the box. I don't think anyone is in a rush to tell HR to write "safety Gear" which is what everyone calls it. PPE, in the context of all their nonsense about swipe cards fuel cards and other trivia meant nothing).

Nothing about contact lists.

All they required of me was that I copy everything company related on my lap top into a special folder on the server (Like they didn't have it already. Every day you docked at the office or remote accessed the server they backed up new material and sniffed for illegal software, unapproved downloads etc.).
IT love this stuff.
They'll suck up files like a Dyson in the dust bowl and their motto is probably adapted from JAWS "I think you need a bigger boat server", yes. The more they can suck in the more they can spend on new kit.

Note that I said copy, not transfer and they didn't want to wipe anything on my laptop. In fact, since they wanted my newish Dell laptop back for someone else they transferred it all to an old Toshiba for me to use till it was time to surrender it. Including my contact list.

So please, let's be sure we are all talking about the same thing and let's get real here.








JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[MiketheEngineer]

Most companies I have worked for had simple or very complex contracts...

Some basically said -

You will not take office supplies or equipment
You will not take customer lists.
You will be expected to work approx 8 hours a day and get 14 days and 10 holidays off.

That was the simple contract.


Others were about 5 pages long but basically covered the same things.

I have known murderers that could sleep at night - but I sure as hell couldn't!! It's your conscience!! Treat people how you would like to be treated!! The Boy Scout rule and hopefully something you learned as a kid.....

That's my bottom line and this is my caboose to this train of thought!!

 

[jmw]

If Mike, your contract said you will not take customer lists then don't do it. That would be breach of contract.
If a company signals that it considers that you should not take the lists then you know the situation and respond accordingly.
But I've never had such a restriction in any contract I ever worked under.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[hokie66]

Some of this is ridiculous and has nothing to do with ethics or legality. Agree with cass and moltenmetal...maybe some others. How is anyone expected to generate new business from a limited number of clients if he/she can't contact them? Just speaking from a building perspective, if all the developers, government agencies, etc. in a given locale were out of bounds, you would not only have to change jobs, but change location in order to achieve this unrealistic sense of doing what is right.

 

[casseopeia]

As I review an employment contract, I am struck by the requirement that I must keep all client lists, vendor lists, and supplier lists confidential and restricted from developing an independent relationship with any should I leave the company, including ALL FUTURE POTENTIAL CLIENTS AND VENDORS TO THE FIRM

Seriously, do I question it or just sign it and not worry if I happen to inadvertently work for one of those POTENTIAL clients if I leave or get laid off.



"Gorgeous hair is the best revenge." Ivana Trump

 

[jmw]

I hope this isn't your best new hope for the future.... you can always ask them what this is all about.

What is an "independent relationship"? I guess they mean not using their clients for some non company business. If so, they should be more explicit.
Just about anyone is a potential client. So it means no stacking shelves at Walmart.
I bet they don't even know why they have this clause in there. I am getting mighty suspicious that some of these companies don't pay lawyers to write contracts they simply grab them off the internet.
You might try and google a few choice phrases and see what comes up.


JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com