What should new engineers know? 10

[ERE]

I teach in a mechanical engineering technology program of a large university. As part of our Continuous Quality Improvement process for accreditation, we have been discussing what skills our graduates should possess as they leave our institution. Our program emphasizes applied design and many of our graduates are employed as designers and engineers.

As practicing professionals with a wide range of experience and education, I am interested in your opinion of what engineering graphics skills and abilities a graduating mechanical engineering technology student should possess? Please don't limit your comments to graphics standards and GD&T when responding.

Thanks in advance for you comments.

Ed

 

[ERE]

Ctopher, I'm not real clear on what you mean by "I believe it is time for engineering schools to catch up with the real world. Also schools in general. Times have changed."

Accredited programs (engineering and engineering technology) do not exist in a vacuum. ABET has established 11 key outcomes that all programs must provide... I don't have them in front of me, but they are stuff like being able to solve technical problems, (mechanics, thermal sciences, fluids, etc.) being able to communicate, recognizing the need for life-long learning and ethics... These outcomes are developed by academics and the professional societies. (ASME, ASCE, IEEE, etc) Additionally, every program has an Industrial Advisory Committee (IAC) which is comprised of representatives from industry... typically, we try to get engineering managers... the purpose of the IAC is to advise the faculty on what their program should include. Typically, these are regional groups because most programs focus on the needs of their region. They meet regularly (1 to 2 times per year) and discuss issues related to the program.

Our MET program has 13 full-time faculty members. 9 are PEs and most of them do outside consulting work and/or some type of applied research. This experience is also incorporated into the curriculum. Quite often, I will spend a day working on a consulting project that will involve something that I'm going to cover in class the following day... I discuss this with my class to demonstrate relevance of the material to their career... they typically get pretty excited by these discussions.

Ed

 

[ERE]

Five-year programs - I don't think they are generally a good idea. We will never be able to teach every engineer everything they will need to know... we have to draw the line somewhere. As I hear it, enrollments in engineering programs are down nationally. Adding a required fifth year will reduce the enrollments and graduates further...

I graduated from a five-year "professional degree program" in architectural engineering from a large, well known university. (It's a BAE, not a BS degree) It is interesting because looking back, the program is almost a hybrid engineering science-engineering technology program. I took the same math and science as all the other engineers on campus. Had a bunch of the other stuff too... an EE course, computer science, thermal science, fluids. Some of the courses in the program (structural option) were survey courses of other disciplines. Some courses were theoretical in nature (loved indeterminate structural analysis for example) and some were absolutely applied (this is how you do this...) In my work, I use a small portion of what I learned in school. I have had to learn a lot of stuff that wasn't covered. I could have ended up doing the same work with a traditional 4-year degree preceding grad school. I suspect this is true with most engineering careers - people will always have things to learn on-the-job.

Ed

 

[ajack1]

A top post above from ERE worthy of a star.

It is interesting to read what people think you need to be an engineer. Many of the things described as “must have” would not have been taught to engineers educated thirty or forty years ago, does that mean that they are not engineers?

Perhaps from a British bias but the one of the greatest engineers of all time was Isambard Kingdom Brunel, he was in the true sense an engineer, who along the way made many mistakes, but came up with some fantastic ideas most of which still stand today, he did however have no idea what solid modelling or Microsoft was.

Sir Frank Whittle was a pilot in the RAF (Royal Air Force) he was not an engineer in any sense of the word but still went on to design the jet engine. Would that make him more of an engineer than someone with an engineering degree? I am sure a few of his dimensions were not correct.

Alan Turing was a mathematician but is widely regarded as the inventor of the worlds first electronic programmable computer, is that not engineering of the highest order?

Do you need a degree in engineering to be an engineer? Something to ponder next time you sit on a plane working on your laptop.

 

[Tunalover]

ajack1-
We must make a firm distinction between inventor and engineer. Many engineers are not creative but succeed anyway. Inventors HAVE to be creative in order to succeed. Math and science tends to stifle creativity!




Tunalover

 

[GregLocock]

If you think Whittle didn't understand the thermodynamics (and hence maths) of his invention then I think you have got hold of the wrong end of the stick.



Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Heckler]

Engineer

n 1: a person who uses scientific knowledge to solve practical problems [syn: applied scientist, technologist] 2: the operator of a railway locomotive [syn: locomotive engineer, railroad engineer, engine driver] v 1: design as an engineer; "He engineered the water supply project" 2: plan and direct (a complex undertaking); "he masterminded the robbery" [syn: mastermind, direct, organize, organise, orchestrate]

narrow-minded

narrow-minded adj 1: capable of being shocked [syn: shockable] [ant: unshockable] 2: lacking tolerance or flexibility or breadth of view; "a brilliant but narrow-minded judge"; "narrow opinions" [syn: narrow] [ant: broad-minded] 3: rigidly adhering to a particular sect or its doctrines

I think this states everything we need to know about Whittle

http://www.cwn.org.uk/heritage/people/whittle/biography.html

Whittle settled in America in 1976, and was a member of the Faculty of the Naval Academy, Annapolis, Maryland.



Best Regards,

Heckler
Sr. Mechanical Engineer
SW2005 SP 2.0 & Pro/E 2001
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o
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"There is no trouble so great or grave that cannot be much diminished by a nice cup of tea" Bernard-Paul Heroux

 

[vooter]

I saw Whittle speak at the Air and Space Museum in Washington, D.C. a long time ago, when I was but a child!

Thomas Alva Edison was no mean engineer, either...

Regarding NEW engineers and what they should know... They ought to be able to learn any computer program in a couple of days. They should be able to draw, too...

Hey! don't we become engineers because we like to build things, including putting our ideas on paper?

 

[MechEng13]

ERE,

One thing I would add, I don't remember anyone mentioning it yet, is tha all ME or MET students should work in manufacturing during some point in their undergraduate study. As Kim said a GREAT engineer or designer knows how something can be made economically and in a timely fashion. I learned as much about manufacturing and the intricacies of making something while working as a Quality Control Tech for a go-kart manufacturer as I did in my BSME. Knowing how something you design will be made will help you to understand how to design it for DFMA better than the class will.


Alan M. Etzkorn
Project Develpment Engineer
Wabash National Corp.

http://www.wabashnational.com

 

[ERE]

Thanks for your comments MechEng13...

all of our students must complete a year-long industrial capstone project or a substantial internship. I think I'd like to see all students do both. Co-Op programs have some advantages as well...

Ed

 

[Rich2001]

New engineers need to better their communication skills, verbal and written. They need to be able to present new ideas, support and defend their ideas. Having student verbally present a précis of the previously lecture is a technique that I have utilized with moderately good results.

Mechanical and Civil Engineers, each require better education on fabrication practices such as welding and heat treating. This information should be included with an Engineering Materials course. Within the covers of Budinski’s Engineering Materials tome (700+ pages) only around eleven pages mention welding. An extremely low amount when one remembers that nearly 70% of all products are welded, brazed or adhesively bonded together.

Exposure to Non-Destructive Testing techniques, a single lecture should suffice. Here is a PowerPoint

http://www.ndt-ed.org/TeachingResources/IntroNDT/IntroNDT.htm

The concept of Life-Long Learning. In the current issue of NCEES’s Licensure Exchange

http://ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/le_2005_04.pdf

a new scheme for licensure is proposed that require 30 additional credit hours in engineering courses. A Bachelor degree (novice) is just the first step of the journey, granted the first step is always the hardest.


Vita sine litteris mors est.

 

[HemiBuell]

This whole MET vs. ME is a giant load. Are you serious? That piece of paper means nothing. It comes down to your work ethic, your willingness to learn and possibly relearn skills.

I am a MET that went on to a ME masters. Yes I was taught calculus in my MET courses. I have ME's coming to me all day with questions. Why do they do that? Becuase I enjoy what I do and work hard it, and they are lazy.

Two years out of college there is no difference between ME and MET.

Funny story. My college roomate was a ME, used to always bust on me for being a "stupid" MET. Well guess who is currently working under me. Yup, that same college roomate.

The best thing to teach a engineering student? Do not go into the profession because you are good at math like your high school advisor tells you. Get into it because you have a passion for it. Because if you do not have this passion you will be miserable for the rest of your working career. What we do is not easy or very enjoyable for the average person.

Sorry to hijack the thread, but let's try to stay realistic.

 

[wes616]

Coming into this late I'd like to mention this.

I work at a pretty big deal aerospace company, and the Sr engineer on the project (think big gov't mil) we are working on has a degree in Chemistry, and is called an engineer by everyone. It comes down to a way of thinking and that "work ethic" that people keep talking about.

My dad, a competent engineer himself (think sending instrumentation to another planet) has his degree in physics.

One of the "smarty pants" people that I graduated with (again think big deal engineering college) in mechanical engineering is now selling car for a living. Another is a real estate agent. When we were in school, you'd have never thought they weren't going to be engineers. But I guess that was before I knew what an engineer actually did.

I absolutely agree with Hemibuell. Many people become engineers for many reasons, but few actually want to do the new new thing. That to me is what engineering is all about. Not this endless bureaucratic report writing that most of the "other" engineers I know do.

I am not saying that there is no place for report writing, but when you are the reports guy, are you really an engineer. I mean come on... I design new parts, see them made, stand up and answer the tough questions. While this yahoo from Stanford writes reports all day to deflect in lack of ingenuity and keep that paycheck coming...

... Oh, I wonder if they'll take that $75.00 grad fee check and "actually" give me my degree 9 years later. Who knows I couldn't afford it then, and I'm sure that since every thing has gone up there, I couldn't afford it now..

 

[wes616]

and lastly I think that maybe I should have been a cowboy instead of an engineer... better job security.

 

[MechCT]

Hi ERE.

Funny, but it sounds almost like you're describing the exact same degree program I signed up for in Springfield Mass a few years ago. As a graduate of the MET program (2 year degree) there I was given the opportunity to learn a large number of things from the design, manufacturing, and project management side of the business. We had two english courses (basic english comp and a technical writing course), project management, fluid mechanics, physics, statics, strengths of materials, machine design, CAD (AutoCAD, Mech. Desktop, Pro/E), CAM (EdgeCAM), many math courses (up to a "calc-lite" or pre-calc), GD&T theory and application, and even a manufacturing class where we were able to create parts with Pro/E, create tool paths with EdgeCAM and then finally plug the programs into some milling machines and actually machine our parts out of aluminum. In addition to this, we also had a inspection course that taught us the ins and outs of using all sorts of measuring and gauging apparatus including a CMM. All in all the MET program, at least at the school I attended, was excellent and allows graduates to aquire positions where tasks in drafting, design, manufacturing, and inspection are tackled with much confidence and competence.

Graphics standards and skills? I think that it's important to understand at least one 3D software package and AutoCAD. A manufacturing software package is a good thing to have as well. Of course, drafting standards and a robust knowledge of GD&T is a prerequisite in my opinion.