What would you do? 5

[Pressed]

This question for me is years over but I thought about it the other day and I would like to hear what others would have done given the situation.

On a normal day working in your office and told to come to a mandatory meeting about the United Way (large US charity). At the meeting there you see the entire office staff. They give you a pamplet and donation form with your name and address printed on it.

The city or county United Way rep gives a speech about who they are and thier services to the community. The services are many but most of which I haven't heard of before. Shows a 25 minute film going into detail about thier services. Then another speech about need, donations and a justification about giving money followed by the amount that is normal for the employees in the room to give; 10% of the annual salary. Finally asking you to have a nice day and please fill out the form and hand it to the rep as you exit. What would you do???

The form has a big check box for 10% of salary followed by a smaller section for a cash donation.

Other than the outcome, which I will tell amongst the anticipated replies, that is all the information I knew up to the moment I made a decision on what to do.


_______________________________________
Feeling frisky.........

http://www.tailofthedragon.com

 

[HgTX]

In ours it also goes through HR. I guess if one wants to do it conveniently via paycheck deduction then confidentiality goes out the window. They set a $6/month minimum (so that they don't wind up spending $0.25 to process a donation for $0.03).

I too am shocked by 10%. It's rare enough that people tithe like that to their churches, let alone to some charity they're less personally connected to. Hell, I can't even budget to put 10% into a retirement account. And I'll tell ya, two years ago I won a prize for being the biggest donor in my entire division (several hundred people), with something paltry like $30/month. 10% is NOT a typical US workplace donation.

[Actually the prize was the director's parking spot, but I didn't work in that building, so I didn't get a prize in the end.]

It's not just management scandals that some people find problematic with UW. Not everyone supports every charity that UW funds, and in many of those campaigns there is no way to earmark donations.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[ziggi]

This may sound naive, but in a way that whole UW meeting/concentration camp of guilt sounds ethically wrong to me. And it's not only the strong arm tactics, it's the fact that HR was present and could see exactly how much everyone donated. Why is that their business? To be perfectly honest I rarely donate and when I do it's to a cause I'm sympathetic to or to get a tax break. Am I a jerk, I don't care, just b/c you work for a company doesn't give them the right to make you donate money or blood. Besides charity begins at home, and if I'm poor how can I afford to eat, to have the energy to go to work, to make the money to donate to these charities.
Top be exact I'm pissed off at the companies and bosses who do this not the UW, its like they're offering up their employees as sacrifices to the guilt gods.
I'm glad my employer doesn't do that, or they'd have one heck of a disgruntled employee on their hands.

 

[denoid]

This goes back many years. I used to work for a small firm with an unethical co-Owner/President/CEO. (Didn't know he was unethical until after this incident).

We had a UW presentation to our small group of employees, and, since I was young, single, professional, etc. with no family to support at the time, I believed it was my responsibility to give generously. I opted for the payroll deduction method of giving. (I don't remember the percentage anymore, but it was generous).

During this time, due to several poor business decisions by the Owners, the company was starting to go "into the tank". Eventually, the company went out of business,(bankrupt), and the Owners were forced to take other jobs to pay off their loans/debts. All of us were laid off, but, since I didn't have a new job yet, I agreed to stay and help close out the remaining projects, along with the Secretary and Bookkeeper for the company.

It was sometime during this closeout phase, I was having lunch with the Secretary/Bookkeeper, and I asked something about what would happen to the UW payroll deduction donations we all gave. She told me that the company had stopped forwarding that money to UW some time ago, and our donations were helping pay off the company debt. Needless to say, I was extremely p*ssed off - not at UW, but at the unethical CEO. Unfortunately, I never had the opportunity to confront him about it.

Moral of the story: I don't give automatic payroll deductions to anyone anymore, and, like many other of the posts here, I give to individual charities directly.

 

[dogleg43]

I was contributing to the UW through my job but then found out that the funds were only being used in the county where my employer was located. I happened to live in a different county so it was not helping anyone near my home.

 

[pmover]

1 - fund raising meetings are not mandatory; they are voluntary. contributions are voluntary and not mandatory.

so what, big deal that one choose not to contribute. that is your own business and not your employer.

as far as team building, your choice to contribute has no bearing whatsoever in the outcome of the team goals (professionally speaking); unless the team goal is solely fund contributions. even then, a poor judgement/decision by corporate management by not honoring and respecting the rights of employees.

frankly, i have and will continue to ignore any requests for contributions to unsuitable and questionable campaigns and organizations. you have the right to deny & by all means, do not feel guilty - i don't.

-pmover

 

[sms]

A note to our friends in Europe, the organizations that the United Way funds are organizations that in Europe would be funded by the government through your taxes. Drug counseling, social services, homeless shelters, suicide prevention, etc.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[AndrewTX]

For me that is an easy one. My previous employer used to hand out pre-printed United Way donation forms. I would write in very large, bold, black marker NO DONATION, pohotcopy it for my records and hand it in.

I get very defensive when put in a hard sale position.

 

[ajack1]

sms in that case it is very cheap, would I change what I pay in tax for 10% of my salary, you bet. ;-)

 

[plasgears]

I worked for a large aerospace company that used top-down pressure to get their way with UW. When my boss gave the recommended amount, I was obligated. It was disclosed to us not cheerfully but with a threatening attitude.

In the same company there was a cabal of managers who were ministers of the big church on the hill overlooking the plant. Of course they favored their own. In the evangelical churches 10% is the tithe with more required as "free will offering." I was fired by one of those ministers. My wife wonders why I haven't warmed up to the church after all these years.

 

[sprintcar]

I went to a United Waste meeting where they had printed out my salary and my 10% "gift" with the Check Here box. I wrote a big ZERO on the form and handed it in, as did the rest of my team. It's been that way ever since.

If it was a true charitable organization, the CEO and the rest of the staff would be volunteers rather than making a bigger salary than I'll ever see.

They also lost with "fertility clinics" in areas that were already on economic assistance or catered to illegal immigrants. That's just plain WRONG.

I'll donate to those who I decide have a legitimate need - not some for profit company preying on the weak sheep of America.

"If A equals success, then the formula is: A = X + Y + Z, X is work. Y is play. Z is keep your mouth shut."
-- by Albert Einstein

 

[myhonda]

Pressed,
In the US, it is unethical to REQUIRE donations. Additionally, make sure that your company is not giving charities your home address or phone number without your consent. Several ethical and legal breaches associated with that.

HR and management should know better than to pressure employees into making donations. That creates an unsafe work enviornment. And if an employee that felt pressured went to a reporter, it would create extreemly bad PR for the company. I mean if that's the way they treat their employees, how will they deal with their customers??? And who would want to work there in the future?

Don't get me started about any company that discriminates against an employee that chooses not to participate in the company sponsored event.

I am fortuante to work for a company that recognizes all of this (it is required training to understand the do's and do not's for managers, legally and ethically). Additionally, I believe good companies will match, in part or full, any charitable contributions you make to qualified organizations. I mean it's just good PR. (These boards are making me appreciate where I work more and more.)

Hopefully this experience has not soured you against giving. I personally find personal satisfaction and joy in giving generously to charities... and I find that freely given generosity is paid back many times over.

Bottom line: ignore them and focus on enjoying your family, friends, and hopefully your career.

Hope that helps.

 

[buzzp]

Never heard of this before (Im in US). I would get up and walk out of a meeting like this. Unreal. Nothing against UW but against the employer. Surprised there has not been a law suit over this of some sort.
I tend to make more waves than most when it comes to work place issues and I know I would come up with some tactful way to protest this action while still being marginally within the bounds of my employers rules. No its never cost me a job, but has given me promotions for the employers who want leaders - those not afraid to speak their mind when it is called for and who can rally the troops to protest such a blatant request to improve their employers perks from outside associations. Obviously, the UW is giving kickbacks somewhere, somehow, or why would an employer allow someone to waist 30 minutes of every employees time (has to be a lot of money)?
Craziness.

 

[RDK]

It may be considered illegal and unethical to force someone to contribute to a specific charity or to even attend a meeting about the charity.

However is a business setting appearing to be a part of the team is all important. I would not make waves about it but simply and quietly declare that I give personally, privately and directly to the charities of my choice.

Its like the thread about having to socialize with other team members. If you stick out as someone who goes against the grain you will be the first to suffer in times of cutbacks and in choice of assignments.

Remember that it is the nail that stick out that gets hammered down.

Laws, morals and ethics have nothing to do with it. It is simply human nature.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[CanuckMiner]

Remind me never to look for work with Rick in Manitoba. ;-)

Sometimes that nail with his head sticking up is the last one to hold things together.

Cheers & Merry Christmas,
CanuckMiner P.Eng. (MN, among others)

 

[RDK]

It always amuses me but no longer surprises me that engineers as a group have such highly developed abilities to see empirical evidence and draw conclusions from it have such a blind spot when it comes to applying the same skills to human actions.

I’m going to draw some similarities between this thread, the one on socializing that is still active and the one a little while ago about the new applicant with body tattoos.

Humans are a group animal, we tent to travel in packs and we also have within our packs a well developed hierarchy.

Since we are social animals we use social clues to determine who is who in the pecking order and how to recognize others of like personalities and interests.

Take clothing for example. In any office there is a dress code. It may not be written down or even enforced in any formal manner but there is a real dress code. In some offices it may be suits and ties and in others it may be grudge style. But never forget that there is a real dress code. Violate it and you are not only violating a dress code but you are showing that you do not belong to that group.

Look at teenagers. They dress in standard styles that determine what group that they belong to, jock, nerd, preppie, druggie etc. Within these groups there are minor variations of clothing that determine which sub group they belong to and their place within that group. Think that it is coincidence that the alpha personality in any group is the most stylish dressed (by that groups standards) of that group?

In the adult world things are a little more subdued. It is more minor variations of dress and behavior that determine what group and where in the group people are. There is however no chance of someone observing almost any organization mistaking the CEO for a janitor.

Why do you think that the HR types advise to dress in the manner that you would dress for an important meeting on the job when you go for the interview? It is so that you will show that you fit in to the organization that is considering that you apply for admittance to and by dressing slightly better than the average daily dress you are showing that respect the organization and the people in it.

Same with office socializing. By conforming to the group norms you are showing that you belong and that are respectful of the group and its members. If socializing is the cultural norm in any position they to survive in the organization you have to socialize. If office socializing is not a part of the office culture then trying to organize an office bowling team is a futile effort.

Same with charity support. If the office wants to support a charity then to loudly and openly oppose the charity is to show that you do not belong to the group. Best to voice your opposition quietly and privately if at all.

Where do these norms develop? They come from the top. Senior management wants to promote those in the group who appear to belong and support the group. Thus middle managers reflect the attitudes of those above them and cultivate the same attitudes and behaviors in those below them.

Senior managers have no time and often lack the skills to determine who far below them is contributing the most. They do however have the skills to determine who is conforming to group norms of dress and behavior.

Take a look at some typical work places and you will see many other examples of how people in the office tend to conform. Some offices will have a lot of jocks and sport fans in them. Invariably the head guy will be a sports fan. Some offices will have people in them, who attend the ballet, Want to bet that the head honcho has season tickets?

I once worked for the Canadian Armed Forces. Whatever sport the current base commander followed was the one that the majority of the people participated in. I used to swim at noon. When a new base commander came in who also swam at noon within a month the number of noon swimmers had tripled. The number of swimmers at other times also increased significantly, even when the commander was not in the pool.

We once had a base commander who wanted to promote the idea of having Sunday nights as a family dining in night. All he started to do was to go to the mess on Sunday nights and within six weeks the place was full on Sunday nights.

Since I was in the pool the first day that the commander came for a swim and happened to be taking my family out for supper the night that the base commander first came for supper I was during the tenure of these two commanders almost bullet proof. It had nothing to do with any change in my abilities or performance but everything toi do with the fact that I was demonstrating behaviors that the base commander agreed with and that became the base norm.

You may consider that the people who came swimming or late for dinner were simply sucking you to the commander or you may see that they were demonstrating that they belonged in command because they behaved as a commander. The fact remains that they were conforming to group norms as demonstrated by the commander.

Why a lot of engineers cannot see and understand these simple facts of human nature is beyond me. All too often we want to be rebels and fly in the face of group norms and loudly declare that we will let our work stand for itself and the hell with what anyone thinks about us personally. That only works for the one in a million who never makes a mistake.

Violate group norms and when (notice when not if) you make a mistake it will be the one that hangs you. The group will use this as an excuse to turn on you. They will not be attacking you for the error but because you have shown that you do not belong in the group and they will be removing and isolating you from the group because of this not the error.

Ever wonder why some people can get away with being royal screw-up and others are fired for one small mistake? It is because the survivors are fully part of the group and the departed are the ones who violate group norms.

Now before you attack me on this notice I never made any value judgments on whether or not this is examples of good and proper behavior? I did not because these are simply laws of human behavior as strong and as valid as the law of gravity. To fight against or to ignore these behaviors is like fighting against or ignoring the law of gravity. Sooner or later you will fall.

Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[sms]

Very well put Rick. I just started a new job, and while there was no real pressure to participate in the United Way, it was really obvious that this was a group activity that was important to our management. I donated enough to have participation status and all is well. Would there have been a problem if I had opted out? Probably not, but why not play the game? They announced the participation level at our work location at the end of the drive, and it was 91%. I obviously made the right decision...

There are rules for success in every employment situation. The key is figuring out those rules and living by them. If the rules offend your sensibilities or your ethics, then it is time to find a new job.

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[RDK]

If you are just starting out then get a copy of “The Ropes to Skip and the Ropes to Know” It is a serious textbook in organizational politics that is actually an enjoyable read.

When we studied this in my MBA orgizational behavior classes those with no managerial work experience could not believe that things were so screwed up in the real world, those of us with some experience had stories to top any in the book.




Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[buzzp]

Follow the leader, hey? Well I don't practice doing things just because everyone else does them. People that do things just because the group does them is called a 'follower'. People that do things because they see the need, are called 'leaders'. I happen to be a leader and don't give much consideration to the norm.
Societies norms are a little disturbing, ever watch any TV? This will indicate quit well what the norms are for society or whats acceptable.
There are some serious consequences to 'following the norm'. One tends to lose touch with who they are and what they stand for. Is not this independant thinking what made the US what it is today? We had a war over our desire to not fit in with the norm of the day. In following the norm, people start to define themselves by the group definition. Then, ultimately, they find themselves believing and following anything the leader of the group says or does. In extreme cases your left with incidents like Waco, TX or the other cult disasters.
Ever see the movie the Firm? This is what your promoting.

 

[sms]

What I am promoting is that a person should pick the battles worth fighting. Giving 20 bucks to the United Way in order to have been considered a participant was worth the investment, and was not worth fighting about.

I am not proposing that a person pursue success by becoming a mindless drone....

-The future's so bright I gotta wear shades!

 

[buzzp]

My comments were more for RDK.

Its not the money, its the fact the company is applying pressure to participate in an activity which should be left for after work. I would revolt based on this alone. Of course, it would depend on first hand knowledge of the circumstances and not a brief explantion in an internet forum to say what I may do for sure.

I guess independant thinking is no longer the norm or maybe its not really the independant thinking but the independant acting. More people need to get spines and stand up for what they feel is right or wrong, as the case may be. Everyone in here has said that it is not a good idea to do what this company is, yet hardly anyone is willing to stand up and say something about it because its 'against the grain'. I would be willing to bet that the majority of the people at this company disagree with these special meetings. None of them will say a word because they are followers and have no spines and will leave it up to a real leader to take up the cause. Done creatively, the UW would not be having any more meetings at my place of work or they would be poorly attended.

Sad to see these types of posts encouraging participation in a group just because they are the popular group. Maybe I should clone the leader and walk all of them off a cliff.