Where IS Engineering Going? 12

[dozer]

Is it just me or is engineering (or those who pretend to be engineers) going downhill. Here are examples over the last year.

Hired a company to design and fabricate some components on a project (details left out to protect the guilty). They had one degreed engineer (but not licensed) who couldn't design his way out of a wet paper bag. We ended up doing much of the design work for them which defeated the whole purpose of us trying to unload some work.

Got anchor bolt reactions from a vendor that were low by a factor of two.

Requested reactions from an equipment skid manufacturer for earthquake loads and was told they really don't understand code requirements for earthquakes and we should figure it out ourselves. (How did they design the supporting structure on the skid if they didn't know seismic loads?)

Asked vendor to provide calcs to justify motor horsepower for a system that is supposed to move over 50 tons. Got an email from him with a one line calc that was wrong.

Another equipment manufacturer framed a T support into a wide flange in such a way that the only moment resistance at the base of the T was through torsion in the beam. You could push on the T with your hand and rock it back and forth. (No , it wasn't supposed to do that.)

These are just a few of the many things I've been seeing. I think one of the problems is vendors who either don't have engineers on staff or their engineers are so specialized they can't do the area that I'm looking out for which is structural.

I realize we're all human and we're going to make mistakes but it has got to the point where I just expect the information I'm getting from vendors to be wrong. Anybody else running up against this?

 

[0707]

Engineering will be developed in the areas bellow. In the short and long time engineers will have work in those areas.

Oil, gas and minerals, energy and utilities

Paper and packaging

Defence and aerospace

Electrical and electronics

Transport and automotive

Textiles, footwear and clothing

Engineering and design

New clean energies

Environment engineering

Waste treatment

Water engineering

Petrochemicals and chemicals

Construction and building materials

 

[opsops]

Not so sure in which country you are but you are generally
Oil, gas and minerals, energy and utilities in few countries only
Paper and packaging

Defence and aerospace in US of course

Electrical and electronics few countries only manufacturing in Asia mainly

Transport and automotive

Textiles, footwear and clothing in Asia only

Engineering and design in few places only as well

New clean energies definetly not in US ( kyoto was not signed yet)

Environment engineering hahahaha

Waste treatment very slow all over the world

Water engineering in 20 years

Petrochemicals and chemicals steady as current

Construction and building materials steady as current


" to be or not to be "

 

[ExRanger]

I hope the picture is not really as bleak as it is being painted in this thread!

There has to be a limit to cost cutting and especially when human safety is at stake. I feel that we may be coming to an end of this era of cost reductions. A lot of the low hanging fruit has already been outsourced. The things that they try to outsource these days often backfire. We have a load of cheap junk at Walmart, but I don't think Walmart will ever be selling aircraft - at least not in my lifetime.

And we can keep in mind that innovative ideas are never a commodity, nor is high-end work. So if we love engineering jobs we may face the reality of needing to keep ourselves in high-end industries.

 

[GregLocock]

But I have yet to see a convincing argument as to why first world engineers are inherently more cost-effective than third world ones. So, until that argument can be justified, you will see more and more of the 'portable' jobs going overseas, and you will also see a lot of investment in systems to increase the portability of jobs. You can sit in your ivory tower claiming that you'll do a better job, but your competitor down the road who figures out how to outsource more of his work more effectively will be underbidding you, or making more profit. Your ivory tower will become a hermit's retreat.

I've already worked on one project where CAD files were transferred around the world daily so that we had 16 hours or more of tube-time per day. That's not the usual way we work, it is not especially efficient, but it has its advantages.

Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[ExRanger]

I can see a lot of detail design work and some analysis going overseas in the short term.

If we get to the point where the corporations are truly global and they simply establish offices in the most advantageous areas and hire locally then I can eventually see entire businesses going overseas, but there would still be a period where the new people would need to gain experience, and the businesses would have to adapt to the foreign governments and cultures. There's tremendous uncertainty in those factors.

Even assuming that extreme, I think certain work would remain in the USA where the people don't need to be "inherently" more cost effective they just have to be actually providing something that no one else can more cheaply, or something that nobody else even knows how to provide, or something that is provided to such a limited, custom and specialized market segment that it does not admit to mass, cheap production. We can also consider companies that work for the US government and are not free to outsource, or companies that are privately held and do not have the pressure from Wall Street to maximize short term gains.

Finally, at some point third world countries will start to consume at greater levels, and will need to direct more and more of their production onto themselves instead of exporting the majority of it.

In any case I would not like to be the guy with his head in the sand who ignores these trends. I am working on an MBA, and if I begin to see my work under credible pressure from outsourcing I will definently consider options. But like I said, so far any outsourcing in my area has backfired, and pretty badly.

 

[ergodesk]

The way I see it, their are to many engineers working on projects without knowing the big picture or they just don't want to take the time to reevaluate. Example, they concentrate on a problem without consulting the origins of the problem a fix is just tacked on. The solution might be a total new direction instead, keeping the design lean a mean.

StyroHome, FerroFoam, Structural Air, ThinShell Concrete.

http://ergodesk.blogspot.com/

http://ergodesk.wordpress.com/

 

[2dye4]

This is only a temporary problem. You can only pay other people to work for you for so long. In the end they either have all your money, or they begin to doubt whether the money they have made will be returnable for either labor or assets. We continue to trade boxes of paper for container ships of goods. Its a pretty good deal for those in the USA who do not loose their employment. But be sure my brothers and sisters that the days of overseas labor will cease to be of value. When our government takes the inevitable step that is necessary and devalue our currency, then we can all go back to work. The people with over sized mortgages will be bailed out and manufacturing and engineering jobs will return. In the mean time the trend is fuelling the growing wealth inequality in the USA and this is why it is not challenged yet.

 

[kepharda]

I work for a small consulting firm. We have no shareholders just a owner. I have learned more in 1 year at this place than the previous 4 at a major manuf. corporation. Here is why:

1.) I am responsible for engineering design. At my previous job I did alot of management stuff because the Supervisors were incapable/unmotivated. I learn more here because I am able to concentrate on Engineering not teaching Lean Manf. to Hourly Production Workers. My experience wasn't unique.

2.) The Principle Engineers/Project Managers really check my work. They are the boss and they take the time to look at what I send out and find my errors. I don't care what anyone says, -until you make some mistakes it is difficult to see exactly how to go about fixing them.

The only major problem I really see is our customers have the wrong idea about how long things will take.

My most recent example: I needed a P&ID to start the piping design. Designer in Europe was working on it and was very late getting it to me. He did on the 22nd of Dec. Mr. Idiot (name changed to protect the stupid) decided he needed to go to bid with the Mechanical Drawings on the 3rd of Jan.

I explained to him that this wasn't going to be any help what so ever, but he did not seem to understand that the contractors would not have an accurate price with imcomplete or incorrect drawings. But he didn't care or understand. Needless to say I have been answering a multitude of questions for 2 weeks now because they don't understand the drawings. It is total crap. All this distraction also hasn't helped finish any of the work.

I also have often turned to doing things slowly on paper, before jumping on the computer, for calcs and drawings. I find that the slower process helps my mind keep up and avoids distraction of the bright shiny lights this seems help me focus. Then I get to the PC to do the "mass production"

-dave

 

[aloha2000]

engineering has lost its status as a profession long ago.

many out there claim to be doing engineering work, many will choose to hire a technician, a tradesman to do engineering work ie is cheaper.

compare it with doctors and lawyers

nurses will not do doctors work, they could though
paralegals will not do lawyers work either

engineers are usually a commodity.

my kids will probably not go engineering

 

[0707]

The problem of most engineers is when they choose to be an engineer because of the status. In a third world where the one, which is not blind, governs, it works. But in a developed country where the competition is great, the engineer who is there only for the status, will soon or later be defeated.


Cheers

Luis

 

[DRC1]

Three years ago I had a very dark view of the future of civil engineering. In the past few years my outlook has become more positive. I believe a large part of the problem has been the conglomeration of engineering firms. The large firms have existed on a reputation that was no lnger true. Poor engineers could survive and multiply ike rabbits in those orginizations. The small firms can not carry non performers and generally in my opinion have a higher quality product. Currently The Big Dig has exposed the problems of these large firms. DOT's are now finding very few bidders for mega projects designed by these firms, as contractors have significant private work and can avoid these projects. I know as a contractor, descions to bid and the amount of contingency carried is in part a function of the design firm. The priate owners are now looking to contractors and designers who can produce quality. I do not know how lng this trend will last, but I think I see the tide begining to rise.

 

[SomptingGuy]

The problem of most engineers is when they choose to be an engineer because of the status. In a third world where the one, which is not blind, governs, it works. But in a developed country where the competition is great, the engineer who is there only for the status, will soon or later be defeated.

I guess they could always vent their spleens in the "Professional Ethics" forum.

Engineering pays well enough for most of us. Who needs status?

 

[prohammy]

Just a quick comment,

Status is one thing, but satisfaction and enjoying the end product of your efforts is also important.

Oh, and as per StompingGuy's comment, the money ain't a bad side-effect either.

Kevin Hammond

Mechanical Design Engineer
Derbyshire, UK

 

[crystalmountain]

Our company’s corporate engineering manager is a non-engineer with “zero” engineering knowledge. Things, such as standardization and engineering-related issues, were often not done or got stuck in him because he didn’t know what to do. Then the real engineers underneath him had to step in to fix the mess. Otherwise, jobs would not get done.

After things got done, our company thought the engineering manager was a good engineer.

To facilitate standardization and quality control of engineering design, our corporate engineering manager hired a quality control engineer to review and oversee standardization, engineering design, and details. There is one problem, however, the quality control engineer is also a non-engineer with ‘zero” engineering knowledge. So the real engineers underneath the quality control engineer had to step in to fix the mess he created in “quality control.” Otherwise, jobs would not get done.

After things got fixed, our company thought the quality control engineer was a good engineer.

Two projects collapsed in the past two years - fortunately no one was hurt. Many problems or mistakes were caught and fixed by real engineers in time before constructions were completed.

What a # joke engineering profession is!

 

[csd72]

crystalmountain,

It is intereesting that many of your experiences mirror my own in large companies.

I worked for an acquisition, design, construct company in the UK and I had a meeting with one of the directors once. In the space of half an hour I knew beyond a doubt that he had no idea what acquisition, design or construction did. On what was he basing his management decision?

This same company we saw more and more middle management pour into the company while the engineering was reduced from 16 to 4 (largely from people giving up and leaving).

They are reluctant to spend money on experienced engineers, but they have no reluctance to spend it on (more expensive) middle management staff.

My solution to the issue:

1. Dont work for big companies that are run by non-engineers.
2. At interviews I will judge my employer as much as they judge me. If they are not still knowledgable and in touch with the profession then I will choose not to work for them.
3. I always try and work at places that check their work. I have checked work for engineers with 30 plus years of experience and I always find something (usually small with the experienced ones).
4. I always treat deadlines as secondary to the adequacy of the design. You can always get another job, but culpability for poor design stays with you.


As per the original question, I believe that the poor quality of work from graduates is largely due to four things:

1. poor salaries in many disciplines - this means that the smartest students will usually go to another better paid (and probably easier) profession. somtinguy and prohammy, you come from some of the better paid disciplines so you probably get paid better than most.
2. Engineering courses are trying to become too 'all inclusive' if you learn only 10% of what you need at university why reduce by replacing some of the courses with management. If we want to be managers when we graduate we should have done management, if we want to become managers 5 years after, we would have forgotten most of it anyway.
3. Lack of respect for the value of experienced engineers to remain in design. I recently worked for a sole practitioner who said that he was looked down upon by many of his peers because he was still 'doing numbers'. Becoming a hands on 'Technical manager' should be seen as a valid career path of its own, not a dead end for those who dont make management.
4. lack of on the job training- I was working for 6 years before someone actually sat me down and showed me a proper way of designing a building, I was basically self taught before then. My wife is in a far less technical profession and she goes to so many training courses she is sick of them!

But on the other side even graduate engineers that fully understand the principals of engineering should not be expected to know how to be an engineer, that has to be learnt on the job.

 

[pipehead]

All in all, Dilbert has captured most of these horror stories, we need to send this to Scott.

My wost one had a VP that did regulated utility engineering (gas). The company ended up with a non regulated enity that had contracts with time deadlines, fixed budgets, non-perscriptive standards, wierd chemistry, and complex thermodynamics. After I came in 15 days late, the projrct was studied for 15 months before I was called in, 15% over my budget, but 45% under the studied budget, I was told I was a bad engineeer because I didn't study the problem and write out more specific documents and involve more vendors or internal people.The guy was promoted and I was given a $500 bonus.

Good engineers become tools. Put into a box oiled up and thrown to fix something broke. The person hasn't a clue how to fix or what the tool does, but last time he had a similar proplem he got a raise.....

Signed,
Just a tool in the box

 

[mendinho]

Ooops, I heard a lot of criticism against young egineers. I am young and I really love engineering. Unfortunately it is impossible to be an expert in five years: you need all your life.

 

[ash060]

I am a young engineer involved totally in design. I have a couple years of experience. I have noticed that many older engineers do not feel that the younger generation is up to snuff.

I think it is kind of like comparing apples to oranges. Times have changed and engineering has changed with it. Young engineers have much more to digest than their older counterparts did. For example, look at current codes they are much larger than they were. Wind or Sesmeic loads for example take quite a bit of calculation time, I mean there is a whole bunch of stuff to calculate just to get the loads you need. It used to be 25 or 30 psf and you are done. The first AISC code was 12 pages and now it is over 300. But young engineers should be expected to know all these things when our counterparts were not because they were not known at the time.

Also things are getting more complicated. It used to be do some moment distribution and call it a day, and now it is use some 3-d FEM program to get your answers. Since things are more complicated it is harder to get a good feel for what you are doing. Sometimes those simple methods will only get you half way there. So many of the projects I work on have very complicated geometries and conditions that you could spend all day designing one detail.

Lastly, there is the time involved. Projects that used to take months now take weeks, so no time can be spent looking at the project. They seem to just flash before my eyes and they are gone.

Experience is so important, and I would like the older engineers to remember that there is more to know now and less time to know it in, so please give me a hand.

 

[csd72]

I apologise if my comments have insulted some of the young engineers out there.

My criticism was aimed at the industry in general and not at individual graduates.

I believe it is the industry that lets you down, not the other way around.

Regards

CSD

 

[Grubbyky]

A lot of postings in this thread focus on the poor work that has been produced in the past several years and the poor quality of work being produced now.

In the next 5 years, there could be a greater focus on the quality of work and greater awareness of professionalism. This will cull out the underperforming plan stampers or force them to change their ways. A larger portion of engineering work will be to go back and fix the mistakes made now. To support this view, I will use myself: I am freshly out of engineering school, and I have already seen some very bad practices such as PEs without much reasoning ability, but able to copy specs from a book onto a drawing, an "engineering" firm with stakes in two other "engineering" firms where the first firm has 1.5 engineers and the other two have none, the engineers are plan stampers for the other two, and a structural design I hired a firm to do for my project where an EIT used a stamp of the PE's signature to wet seal the set of drawings. This is a lot of poor practice to see in about one year, and I promise myself that I won't allow myself to practice in that way. I would like to think that the other engineering school grads that I had professionalism and ethics class with learned the same things in it that I did.

In five years, we will be creating solutions to problems that are being recognized by the few who will take a couple of years to convince the many that there is a problem.