Which Digital Relay? 1

[eti]

Hi all

I have a large number of old GEC relays to replace and have been looking at the digital relays on offer. I can't see much between them in terms of function. I got a long list down to GE Multilin, Schneider SEPAM, Areva MIDOS and Siemens SIPTOTEC.

Does anyone have experiecne of how reliable and user friendly these products are?

Regards

eti

 

[rbulsara]

Popularity of a mfr will vary by the region and selection will depend on the application and functionality you are interested in. If you state those, you may get a better response. At the end of the day anyone of the one you mention, and many more, will do the job.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[Zogzog]

I tend to recommend Multilins, good product and user friendly. (No I don't work for GE)

 

[dpc]

It would help if you told us where in the world these relays would be installed and what the needed functions would be.

David Castor

http://www.cvoes.com

 

[davidbeach]

You left SEL off your list (and no, I don't work for them either).

 

[slavag]

Where is ABB, Basler, Vamp, Nary, Ziv, Woodvaed/SEG....
Choice of digital relays is not simple thing.
List of function
Communication, control, monitoring, measurments.
line from MV up to EHV.
Number of digital inputs and outputs.
Number of current and voltage inputs.
Optional RTD cards, optional extention card.
Optional free programable logic.
MTBF, MTTF.
Price+strong local support, reference list.
Lot of things

Godd Luck.
Slava

 

[oldfieldguy]

On this side of the Atlantic, GE (Multilin) and Schweitzer (SEL) probably have 97% of the market between them in industrial and utility protection, with GE heavier in industrial applications and SEL heavier in utilities.

If you're not ready to do your own tech support, you might want to see who's using what in your area, although I have had good success with GE online and via phone. Being mostly heavy industry now, GE is our installed base.

old field guy

 

[cranky108]

May I offer that the relays all do well, but the bigest difference is the support the manufacturer gives.

Then again I have refused to buy some relays because the salesmen was a jerk and I did not expect very good service.

And it is a good idea to talk with other utilities, and industries to see about which are good relays, and which are not. I have found so far all the manufactures have at least one dog in there lineup of relays.

 

[eti]

Dear all. Thank you for your contribution. To answer a frew point;

The installation is heavy industrial and in the UK.
It's mostly protecting 11kV, mainly transformer feeders, but some motors.
We do not require to derive any signal other than basic local alarms. No SCADA for example.
My priority is reliability, simplicity of operation and manufacturer support

Regards eti

 

[lz5pl]

eti, if you are located in UK I would recommend you AREVA, MiCOM Px4x-series. They are manufactured in former GEC factory in Stafford and acc. to my experience customer support is very good. Well, my direct contacts with them are from pre-Internet years, somewhere in mid-90's to 2000, but I hope they succeeded to keep good company practise during all changes this company suffer in last 20 years.

Personally I like also Siemens relays, but I am not sure what is their customer support in UK. From Siemens I will advice you on the proven 7SJ61,62 or 63 series, depending on application. There are new and well advertized 7SJ80-series, but if you don't use IEC61850 protocol, there is no much sence to use them.

I will not recommend SEPAM's.

ABB also have good relays, but they are a bit difficult to handle for first time.

I would not recommend USA-made relays simply because in Europe they are not popular. May be in UK you have better support, but here on the East part of continent they are very rare.

There is one more relatively new on the market Finnish company - VAMP, as Slava mentioned. We use them sometimes in industrial applications with good results. Pricewise also they are very competitive. Their biggest problem for me up to now is lack of popularity, so customer often prefers more expensive but famous brands. Their software is free, they have surprisingly broad scope of functions and very easy to work with.



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It may be like this in theory and practice, but in real life it is completely different.
The favourite sentence of my army sergeant

 

[eti]

lz5pl

Thanks, very useful. I also like Siemens and Areva and both provide good support. I'll look at the VAMP agan. I've got some experiecne with them and is was all good.

Proven units are the way forward.

Cheers

eti

 

[defreitas]

Hi Eti, it sounds like you are after some MiCOM P120 - P123 protection relays...

They are cheap, simple, user friendly... (NO, I DO NOT WORK FOR AREVA), but I have tested, GE Multilins, Sepams, SELs, MiCOMs and many more...

Funny enough, choosing relays comes down to personal choice... u can put 10 engineers in a room to talk about relays and I guarantee they end up arguing... hehehe

The other thing is Areva is pretty big in Europe, so I can't see you not getting good support...

Hope that's helped...



Dan de Freitas
Field Services

 

[slavag]

Hi.
I was worked for ABB 12 years, of course for me ABB relays are favorit )).
I work now with other relays too ( and before was worked ),in any case, Im prefered ABB or Siemens.
In UK, need check UK companies, may be CEE or Siemens UK, is not Siprotec.
lz5pl, you are right, ABB relays are not simple, if we talk about RE_54 or RE_670, but possible use RE_610, simple and cheap, possible use RE_52, possible use newer relay REF611.

Siemens-800 series, for me, a very good choice.

Sepam 10, btw, AREVA P20, P30 series now is also SE.

Don't forgot about simple and cheaper relays: Orion, SEG.
Today, its a real problem choice relays, price, price, price and support.

Best Regards.
Slava

 

[ScottyUK]

Areva have the majority of the installed base within the distributionsystem in the UK, or at least they have inherited it from GEC and Alsthom. In transmission there are a lot more Siemens and ABB relays appearing because they have been furnished as part of a turnkey substation as our aging open-terminal subs are replaced by SF6 designs. Siemens, ABB and Areva are the three manufacturers of SF6 switchgear contracted to NGC (as far as I know...?)

Bitter experience would steer me away from CEE's products. There are better products out there.

Siemens appear to have resurrected the old Reyrolle brand name after they bought the business from VA Tech. I'm not sure what the modern Reyrolle-badged relays are like but it was a well-respected brand many years ago. Can anyone comment?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[powerjunx]

I prefer Siemens is the best choice, however; strong technical support and price at stake should be consider.


"..the more, the merrier" Genghis Khan

 

[loadxfer]

I would just farm it out to someone who knows what there doing. And I would buy American unless you want a reversed engineered relay.

 

[ScottyUK]

You'll probably be amazed to hear that there's a place called Europe where, believe it or not, there are some very talented engineers who are designing relays which are the equal of what comes out of the US.

Anyway, I'd buy my relays from someone who knows what they're doing. Maybe you could get a job writing 'Engrish' manuals for the Chinese rip-off market?


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If we learn from our mistakes I'm getting a great education!

 

[jraef]

I was about to ask about Reyrolle myself until I saw ScottyUK's post. I was unaware that Siemens had bought them.

I think the "buy local" issue is the best advice. Here in the US I would select Multilin, SEL or maybe even Basler over any imported product, mainly because of support. I used to work for Siemens and still do work for a Siemens Solution Partner / Integrator and I still loves me some Siemens products. But I steer clear of Siprotect relays here just because every time I need information on one, it takes 3-4 days to get an answer from someone; and I have inside tracks that I can still take advantage of! Basically if you are not one of their big end user utility customers, you can't get any attention on that product. Protection Relays are complex and most people need a lot of help with them, in fact some people make a decent living just on relay engineering, service and commissioning. Having good local support is paramount.

I would just farm it out to someone who knows what there doing. And I would buy American unless you want a reversed engineered relay.

Really? If you were in the UK as the OP stated he is, you would still "buy American"? No wonder people in other parts of the world perceive us as arrogant...

"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my axe." -- Abraham Lincoln
For the best use of Eng-Tips, please click here -> faq731-376

 

[slavag]

Hi.
RMST relay of CEE UK a very simple overcurrent and earth fault relay + thermal protection. About 10-15 min time for learn/read manual, 10-15 min for setting without laptop.
I don't know price.

Best Regards.
Slava

 

[DTR2011]

It is too bad that SEL is not popular in the UK. I have been commissioning them for about 15 years.

Whenever I have a problem, I can speak to a highly qualified SEL Application Engineer and get a correct answer in about 5 minutes.

If there is ever a hardware related problem, SEL fixes / replaces / repairs for FREE.

GE has come a long way with the UR series of relays. The SW is very good and the accuracy / reliability of the devices has improved significantly over the years. I don't like how the wiring is laid out on the relay. I like the modular approach.

The Siemens relays are very good, but I have also experienced trouble trying to get support for DNP mapping (somthing that should have been in the manual). A purchase order was expected for support.

My $0.02