Who to blame... 4

[SMIAH]

I started some time ago to obtain engineering contracts from a client who acts as a manager for the construction of a highway (public-private partnerships). My role is similar to a specialist hired to provide plans related to drainage (eg, retention basins, sedimentation, gravity pipe calculations, etc…). There is always a sense of urgency with this client because the project is now under construction and in a rush. But I am not responsible for the supervision and the work once my plans are done and the site is located outside of where I work (more 200 km).

During my vacation, I told this client that another engineer would be available to continue the work in my absence. This, thinking that there wouldn’t be anything to "come out" anyway during those two weeks. But I was wrong and my client had an emergency during my absence. The other engineer has taken over and performed the work. Plans have been sent to the client, approved by government authorities. Upon my return, I checked the project and it seemed correct to me after a very quick review. It's a stilling basin at the outlet of a culvert and a ditch connecting to the creek downstream.

The construction has been made since then and I completely forgot about this project.

Yesterday the client contact me and sends me photos. I realize, by consulting our plans, that a slope of 0.1 ft/ft was specified. However, I am convinced that this is a text error on the drawing while the slope should be of 0.01 ft/ft. The construction was done without any questioning about this (duh).

The client knows that something has gone wrong. However, they do not yet know that the error comes from our plans. I hesitate to admit our mistake not to discredit myself as a "specialist". The other engineer is returning the blame on the CAD drafter who isn't here now.

The public safety is not endangered. The only problem is stability of the riprap that covers the ditch and the impossibility for fish passage (environmental requirements).

What do to? Let it go, even if I know that we made this mistake. Assume it? Blame it on the other engineer?

I'm working as a PE Engineer in a civil engineering firm.

 

[MintJulep]

Your stamp. Your responsibility.

Seems pretty simple.

 

[SMIAH]

I didn't stamp it so I let the other engineer take care of it.

Seems pretty simple indeed.

 

[rbulsara]

It is much better for your credibility to find and report your own mistake before someone else does! Especially, if you can also advise a fix.

Rafiq Bulsara

http://www.srengineersct.com

 

[ewh]

... and putting the blame on the drafter is a weasel way out for the other engineer. The drawing was supposed to be reviewed to catch this type of mistake, amoung others.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[jmw]

Everyone makes mistakes.
That's life.
It is damned difficult to win respect and trust but dead easy to lose it and then regaining is much more difficult still.

There is a point here.
It is that while people remember mistakes, what they really remember is how people respond to mistakes. What they often forget is trauma free experiences.

One of the major concerns is the unknown of how a manufacturer or supplier will respond if and when there is a problem.

What the client wants is the problem solved.
That's top of the tree.
Once fixed it is history. Good history or bad, it will become a prominent feature of the relationship.
Products that never fail, never need attention are often forgotten or taken for granted.

Failures create memories of responses not just the problem itself. A good response to a problem is often more beneficial than not having a problem in the first place.

If you make the client start director to director phone calls to get action and responsibility, you are losing the game. You need to take this head on and fix the problem.
If you focus on fixing the problem the client will forget whose fault it was and remember favourably how you responded.
If you try to duck the blame that is what will be remembered.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[Ron]

Does the other engineer work for you? Are you the principal of a company or do you both work for the company and have equal bearing?

If your client has noticed something that is incorrect in the performance of your design, then you need to go to your client and explain the issue. If your design is at fault, then it would be better to participate in the repair than to participate in litigation, which will bring out experts for the other side who will likely spot your error and you will ultimately participate in the payment for the repairs anyway...after you have spent money in litigation as well.

In general, the professional liability insurance carriers will tell you never to admit to an error. That doesn't mean that you can't ethically go to your client and work out a solution.

 

[rowingengineer]

why do we need to blame anyone? why can't there just be a solution put forward in regards to the possible problem. Much the same as Ron points out.

An expert is a man who has made all the mistakes which can be made in a very narrow field

 

[SMIAH]

Thanks for the answers. Thoughtful, as always.

The other engineer is one on the same level as me, though a little less experienced.

We (I'm including myself) made a mistake and I agree that I should tell my client as soon as possible.
I think that I will do on tomorrow morning. It's a matter of credibility I think as well as professional ethics.

Finding a solution is easy here, but who will pay for it... is something else. The site is less accessible right now for machinery (still feasible).

I'm wondering why I'm caring that much about this mistake right now as the other engineer don't (referring to the "your stamp, your responsibility". Blaming the drafter was... something to hear.

 

[KENAT]

The usual light hearted response at my last place was 'blame the last person to have checked/approved it'.

It may well be true that the drafter initially made the error, but no one else that looked at it caught it either. If the other engineer was really 'blaming' the drafter, not just postulating how it happened, then that says something about that engineer.

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[patprimmer]

This is the ethics forum, not the how to get ahead forum.

Ethically, if you make a mistake you should fess up and take it on the chin. End of story. If that is not obvious, no amount of guidance will ever make you ethical.

Career wise, well that is not really about ethics is it.

Regards
Pat
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[jmw]

If you are not authorised to initiate remedial work then the decision obviously lies further up the tree. So before your boss is caught napping by a call from the directors, you need to put the problem to him, in writing, with your proposed solution costed out.
You make the point that if there is a delay access can become a problem and escalate the costs.
You don't have to say too much about the "blame" you could simply say it is an internal error you didn't catch. i.e. admit your responsibility but you don't need to blame anyone else. If the boss is interested he will find out.
What he needs is the opportunity to act as soon as possible.
From what you have said so far, I wonder who knows? just the clients initial points of contact? Could be this hasn't gone too far up the tree at the clients end either yet.
The last thing you need is for senior management at your company and the clients to become aware of a problem without a solution and without an owner.

Any delays could prove nasty.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[SMIAH]

@ Patrimmer:
We can sit and talk about what is right or wrong all day long. However, once we know what we did wrong, we must find a solution (get ahead), as several have written here.
__

I discussed with my supervisor who referred me to my code of ethics (I'm in Canada, some may have noticed my Lack of English skills):

An engineer must inform his client as early as possible of any error that might cause the latter prejudice and which cannot be easily rectified, made by him in the carrying out of his mandate.

I could play with the words "engineer" who is not me, or "mandate" that is not mine. I think I rather take it on the chin.

 

[TDAA]

If it went out the door with another engineers stamp, it is not your blame to take. Your review sounds like it was after the fact, and not as detailed as it may have been to place your stamp on it.

That said, it is your companies blame to take, and it sounds like you are the contact for this client / project. Since you know about it, you should contact them. "This is the way Bob put it together, but after you indicated problems, we reviewed and found that this should be that.

Prior to saying to much, you may want to contact your E&O insurer and notify them of a potential claim.

 

[SMIAH]

Sigh...

Think I could start another thread "Should I tell my boss about my coworker's mistake?" or even should I tell my co-worker about his own mistake...

But the good news is that I just called my client and told him... well mostly what TDAA just wrote (except for Bob). He's pretty cool about it as they have other bigger concerns elsewhere. And they say this was a little bit outside our mandatory as they didn't give much information about the physical boundary of the ditch.

It's a relief for now.
I even feel like all's well that ends well.
That could be a nice ending.

 

[SMIAH]

Oh and I kept notes of this conversation with my client.
I'm pretty much hanging on a cliff here... as I didn't wait for any professional liability insurance carriers to tell me what to do.

Credibility first, I'd guess.

 

[patprimmer]

This is the ethics forum.

I thought ethics was about right and wrong.

It sounds to me like your supervisor got it right then you got it right.

It sounds like it came out OK

In my experience, being up front and honest sometimes gets you shafted, but also sometimes adds to your reputation and respect and long term good relationships based on earned trust. On overall balance I have to say I have more good outcomes than bad by being straight up.

Regards
Pat
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[beej67]

Motto:

Bad news early is good news.

I still like to work out a couple of different possible solutions before telling clients there's a mistake though. As far as "who's to blame" ...your firm is to blame, and your firm needs to collaborate on the fix. I'm still a little confused by the situation, though.

You say there was a typeo that took a ditch from 0.01 ft/ft slope to 0.1 ft/ft? That's a pretty big jump. Did you not specify the invert elevation of the stilling basin on the plans? If so, it seems the ditch slope would have taken care of itself.



Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[SMIAH]

Technical aspects : We specified an invert for the outlet of the stilling basin and then a slope of [red]0.1 ft/ft[/red] to connect this outlet to the ROW. So they force this slope, which is way steeper than the natural slope, until they reach the ROW and then there's almost no slope until it reaches the stream(looks adverse on the photo we need to measure). Pretty dumb design as we had to insure fish passage upstream.

@Patprimmer:

Well my supervisor took me to my ethics code. Then I took the decision to call my client. Should I go thank my supervisor?

 

[patprimmer]

Yes.

Regards
Pat
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