Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck

[patdaly]

Other than the obligatory "people had a bad experience with GM", is there a technical reason we do not have a single manufacturer that builds a typical 1/2 ton pickup with a decent diesel? If they can get them to pass automotive emissions ( Volkswagen, Mercedes, and now Jeep ), why not a decent 1/2 ton PU? I know GM's association with Isuzu would let them use the beautiful little diesel they make, and Dodge's contracts with Cummins would make the ISB 3.9/3.3 a natural. It would appear to me as if both of these tough as nails diesels would offer at least 35 MPG, with more than acceptable performance. Couple that with 300,000 mile plus durability and I would think fleets, contractors, etc. would buy them in great numbers.

Comments?

 

[safetydan]

Pure and simple reason is market demand. If buying public demanded that automakers offer a half ton truck with a diesel, then the automakers would. There simply isn't a market demand in North America for it. Europe and Asia don't have a light truck market, so the US is the only place that would want one. Until recently, diesel engines have been seen as loud, smelly, smoky evil step children of the IC engine world, and no one would want one. If you want the Big 4 to start, go to your dealer and tell them.

 

[evelrod]

Hi Pat. You know my feelings about what is offered to those of us that have a working knowledge of the market :-(
If a decent diesel half ton, Dodge, Ford, Toyota...whatever (I have reached the point where I realize "buy American" is meaningless) ever comes on the market, I'll buy it. I have nearly 200k on my Dodge Cummins with "ZERO" problems but, I am getting on in age and that duelly is beating me to death.

My neighbor has a new VW Passat wagon, diesel...has good power and gets 45mpg driving back and forth between the Inland Empire and Irvine over the 29 miles of the twisting canyon road of the Ortega Hwy.
I don't need a wagon...that size pickup would be okay, though.

All it will take is a concerted effort (read that "lots of telly") by the mfgrs. You know Americans only buy what they see on TV...what they are 'told' is "good for them"!
Buy the endorsement of sports 'personality',put Nike swoosh on a diesel 1/2 ton Toyota...winner!!!

Not likely to happen unless we see regular fuel prices a LOT greater than five bucks a gallon...

Rod

 

[swall]

I recall that several years ago, Navistar, Ford's current diesel supplier, designed a V-6 and built a plant to supply an engine for Ford's smaller trucks and SUV's. Ford put the program on hold and I haven't seen any further mention of it.

 

[patprimmer]

I don't know how you guys define a light truck, but Toyota, Mitsubishi, Mazda, Nissan and Isuzu all offer or have until recently offered a light duty or pick up type 1 tonne truck with a diesel or a V6 option here (Australia), in Japan and SE Asia

Regards

eng-tips, by professional engineers for professional engineers
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[patdaly]

safetydan, I dont think that is it, look at the people driving Dodge trucks with the Cummins in it. In addition, try and find any Volkswagen with a diesel, and I have still yet to see a Diesel Liberty on a Jeep lot without a sold sticker on it. I have grown tired of telling GM ( have a friend high up ) how to sell cars and trucks. Now that I think about it, Ford and Chrysler must be spying on my email account, because less than a year after I hit my buddy at GM with ideas, they seem to be producing them, from the short bed hotrod stripper Dodge to the retro designed Mustang.

I only became enamored with this concept after purchasing a converted 3/4 ton 4WD full size GMC with an ancient 4BT Cummins. Sans OD, and with 4.11 gears, this thing gets 26 MPG with enough torque to start in 4th gear if necessary. I am pretty doggone certain that with a decent OD, and the lower stance and weight of a 1/2 ton, this could be quite a star in reducing fuel usage.

Rod, Im with you. Perhaps you could pick yourself up a Cummins 3/4 ton and lighten up the spring package. Frito Lay vans with 4BTs are laying around, and it would be a direct drop in for the 6BT. If Dodge wont build it, then we might have to.

Swall, I forgot about the Navistar V-6, thanks for reminding me. I still cannot for the life of me figure out why they wont do an inline as opposed to a V.

 

[patdaly]

Pat, I think perhaps they don't want to deal with the EPA hassles for a light truck here. If that is the case, then shame on them for being lazy.

For our purposes, I believe the break point between light and medium duty is at 8600 GVW.

 

[GregLocock]

"... Asia don't have a light truck market"

tell that to the Thai's and the Phillipines etc etc.

Where are all your Rangers made?







Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[dalcazar]

Mitsubishi offers their very nice and very attractive L200 pickup everywhere (australia, england, south america, SE asia) except for the US with an excellent 2.5 turbocharged 4 cylinder diesel, Toyota makes an immortal diesel version of it's HILUX (as seen on TOP GEAR) but it's not a very common version. Isuzu makes an uncommon diesel version of their half ton truck that is sold either under the Isuzu or Chevy badge overseas.

Safetydan: you are completely and utterly wrong about there not being a market for light trucks outside the US, the entire pickup buying world buys light pickup trucks and no other country in the world outside the US and possibly canada has a real market for heavy pickups, just look at every video of 3rd world country traffic, light trucks abound. As was said somewhere, toyota could be a virtual sponsor for jihad, every time you see terrorists or guerillas riding somewhere in a third world country, including iraq right now, they're doing it in a toyota half-ton.

I'm from chile originally, and if you ever go there you'll probably notice that the single most common vehicle on the road is the Chevy luv half ton truck, the government doesn't charge you the 18% sales tax if you buy a pickup for work reasons, and therefore anyone with a legitimate business will buy one, couple to that the fact that diesel is a full dollar less per gallon and you just can't lose

I don't know why but the US has a hate relationship with vehicles with diesel engines, blame the smell of old diesel fuel, the loud engine, lack of acceleration and not least of all the ridiculous fact that diesel is more expensive than gas by around 30 cents a gallon in some places. All the old problems no longer exist, just the higher fuel price.

In the US the half ton pickup is apparently seen as a toy and useless for real work, with virtually the entire fleet of working trucks consisting of the 3/4 or 1 ton full sized pickups. In the US the towing of trailers with pickups is much much more common than in the rest of the world, and for that you would preffer a full sized truck, of course you always can get the optional V10 gasoline engine instead of a diesel.

Europe goes with the diesel powered Combi-vans for fleet work purposes (I dare you to find more than 10 pickups driving around a large german city), the rest of the world with asian or european made true utility trucks.


For the rest of the population in the US, who could use a pickup for non-work reasons, the half tonner is seen as a toy again and the open bed as a liability, so they go instead for an SUV for the occasional hauling of gear. The rest of those who actually WANT a pickup will go with a short bed F150 with a V8 engine or a ram with the 5.7 Hemi.

So where does that leave us? customers in the US want either a big powerful work truck, or a big powerful leisure truck, both of which get horrible gas mileage.

The ranger is one real american light truck, competing with the Toyota, Nissan and Mazda offerings, but having owned one, I wouldn't see why anyone would want a ranger in the first place, they're an awful drive. The Chevy S10 and it's relatives are better trucks, but you don't see many of either in a work role.

with biodiesel becoming more common (I know a guy that runs a diesel truck for 3 bucks a month on it) and cars like the toyota aygo that can get EIGHTY miles a gallon on diesel, I think that cost-concious customers in the US will eventually turn towards diesel powered cars.

So, I'd say the reason no US manufacturer makes a diesel version is because the ppl here won't buy them, either on principle for not being like monster trucks or the percieved higher price of the fuel. In much of the rest of the world it makes sense because diesel is a whole lot cheaper than gas (argentina has a large internal vehicle production capacity and a vast majority of it's cars and trucks are diesel powered). If the government were to reduce taxes on diesel so that it was cheaper than gas, then I predict the pitch would change sharply, and the costs of transportation would also be reduced.

I remember hearing at some point that diesel is actually cheaper to produce than gasoline because it's less refined, is this true? and if it is then doesn't it make a whole lot more sense to produce more diesel than gasoline?

 

[TheBlacksmith]

I like my 1/2 ton and don't need more for running yard waste to the composting facility, bringing back a cubic yard of compost or mulch, running hand me down furniture to the camp, bringing home the 15-20 sheets of 4 x 8 drywall or dozen 10 foot lengths of steel one of my projects requires. All of these would be impractical with an SUV, but I don't need an 8600 pound rated, solid axle monster. If they put a decent diesel in the 1/2 ton. I'd buy it. Supposedly Ford is using a 3/4 version of the 6.0 liter Powerstroke (4.5 liter V-6, 220 HP and 440 lb-ft)) in a delievry truck and reputedly it would fit in an F150....

Blacksmith

 

[sbi]

I found a good retro fit for the 1/2 ton. It is a brother to the 2.8 used in the jeep. a V6 3.0 liter with 210 hp@3200 & 367 ft/ls @1600 made by VM motroi aka Detroit/ DCX and used in Europe.

we can make the adapters to fit it in any truck, I have not found a source to buy them in small quantities.

and yes I agree, the big 4 should offer a 1/2 ton pickup and suv with a small diesel. for those of us who drive them forever!


SBI
Central Ne.,USA

 

[safetydan]

I think a lot of you mistook my interpretation of a half-ton truck. Ford F150, Chevy Silverado 1500, Dodge Ram 1500, Toyota Tundra are my classification of "half-ton" I am aware of the extensive use of Toyota Tacoma's and Nissan Frontier outside of the US, but that primarily in Africa, Australia, and the Mid-East. However, drive around the streets of Tokyo, London, and Berlin and you could probably count the number of "half-ton" trucks from all three on one hand.

Going back to the original question, there still is not a market for a "half-ton" or smaller truck with a diesel in the US. Sure it does make sense to everyone on these boards as to the logic and reasoning behind why they would be a good fit, but not everyone thinks with logic and reason. Most people are very illogical and irrational, and will follow a defined path laid out by people in a position of influence. Unfortunately, most of the people who read these messages are not in those positions of influence (don't attack me saying you are, unless you work for an ad agency, marketing firm, or are the CEO of a major automaker, you aren't).

Businesses are always going to do what is best for their buisness, and will offer their products to people who want to buy them. Will the market shift and begin demanding diesel engined "half-ton" trucks? Quite possibly. Diesel VW's and others are flying off the lots right now, even though diesel is more expensive at this moment. 50 mpg in the city with a family sedan is very appealing many feeling the pinch of high fuel charges. Hopefully people will realize the same can be done in the truck market.

 

[dalcazar]

ok safetydan, you've got a point now! I'll call those trucks mid-sized. you don't see those in many places, although they still sell quite a few internationally.

I think that the root of the matter is that the appeal of mid-sized trucks has become a freudian affair instead of a practical one over the years, people buy them for the same reason they buy SUVs, because they're large, with a big engine, and someday they might actually want to use it for moving something, just as the SUV buyer buys it "just in case" he has to go offroad someday. And don't think that it's limited to the US only, they're bought outside the US mostly for the same exact reason.

But relating what I just said to the original question, you can't really put a 4 cyl diesel in a mid-sized truck and expect it to perform in a way that will make anyone want to buy one, especially in the US, only a light truck (like the tacoma) will do.

Dodge already puts the cummins V6 in it's full sized ram, I don't see why they couldn't put it in the scaled down version since it's basically the same, market pressure I guess. but it's not a light truck and it's not a 4 cylinder.

I do think though, that there IS a market for light trucks (not mid-sized, small-sized) in a fleet application, for example the parts delivery trucks that NAPA uses in my town, they usually have chevy S10s and rangers, those could use diesels getting 35 mpg instead of the 20-25 they get on gas now (if you're really lucky). The trucks exist so what is needed most is to create that market thru government sponsored plans and tax breaks, it'd be nice to see tax breaks that are really good for small businesses instead of just the big corporations.

I can see the big 3 lobbying heavily against any such action, just because they don't have a product that could compete with such a good deal.

 

[MikeHalloran]

We bought an Explorer because my mother (86) and my wife's aunt (95) can get in and out of the back seat without folding themselves in half, for which they require, and resent, help. We carry them around from time to time, so the need is not imaginary or hypothetical or Freudian.

We visited dozens of dealers to find something just the right size, that actually had clearance to swing a person's foot between the seatbase and the B-pillar. Bigger SUVs are more cramped in that area, even LWB Suburbans. The salespeople were of course baffled when we sat in the backseat first.

If memory serves, the seating area has roughly the proportions of a 55 Chevy wagon. Except for the extra ground clearance, which necessitates an exterior step.

The ground clearance is in some senses a safety feature, given the rabid determination of modern town fathers to line every road with substantial curbstones. Curbstones inhibit natural drainage, increasing the likelihood of hydroplaning, and inhibit egress from the right of way for accident avoidance and for passage of emergency vehicles.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[rmw]

Back in the days that Ford introduced the Navistar 6.9L diesel in their PU trucks, and that would have been early '80's or so, there was a whole cottage industry devoted to jerking the 6.9's out and replacing them with a straight 6 cylinder Isuzu. I don't remember the particulars. This was done by people in the business of using PU's in a serious way-Hot Shotters. Oil drilling was big in our part of the world in those days, and Hot Shotting drill bits and critical drilling and rig parts by Hot Shot was big as well.

My only interest in the whole thing was that there was quite an availability of 6.9L engines that had no more mileage on them than what it took to drive them from the dealership to the converter's location.

To all: Hang on to your hats. If Europe is any example diesel is sneaking up on us. I read somewhere the other day that 55% of the new vehicles sold in Europe last year were diesel.

rmw

 

[RobWard]

I've got a Nissan Navara on order. 1045kg load capacity (which makes it a commercial vehicle in the eyes of the UK taxman, and thus cheaper to run as a company car). 5 seats. 4 wheel drive. All the toys.
2.5 turbodiesel. 175BHP. 400Nm.

30mpg.

Roll on March 1st.




"I love deadlines. I love the whooshing noise they make as they go past." Douglas Adams

 

[swall]

rmw--I remember a conversion deal that was done to International pickups back in the 1970's. A Mitsubishi inline 6 diesel was used. If I recall, it was offered by a couple of IH dealers. Don't know if it was factory sanctioned or not.

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

For me the one thing that would keep me from buying any 4 cylinder in-line engine is the secondary shaking forces that come with a 4 cylinder.
Many different methods of masking them have been devised, some very expensive and some very novel.

 

[ivymike]

...and if the cab doesn't shake, the problem is...?

 

[DAVIDSTECKER]

Keeping the bolts tight, and parts connected to it.
A place I once work at used the 4BT and they would fatigue bolts to failure, one actuall split the sides open on a hydraulic oil tank. Not a good thing when the machine is on an eviromental clean-up site.
Yes the force can be countered but the cost and added manitance of things like counter rotating shafts or spring arm dampeners is money I'd rather spend on something else to improve the performance of say a 6 cylinder or even a 3 cylinder.