Why not a 4 Cyl diesel in a light truck

[patdaly]

Other than the obligatory "people had a bad experience with GM", is there a technical reason we do not have a single manufacturer that builds a typical 1/2 ton pickup with a decent diesel? If they can get them to pass automotive emissions ( Volkswagen, Mercedes, and now Jeep ), why not a decent 1/2 ton PU? I know GM's association with Isuzu would let them use the beautiful little diesel they make, and Dodge's contracts with Cummins would make the ISB 3.9/3.3 a natural. It would appear to me as if both of these tough as nails diesels would offer at least 35 MPG, with more than acceptable performance. Couple that with 300,000 mile plus durability and I would think fleets, contractors, etc. would buy them in great numbers.

Comments?

 

[boldfish]

Apparently, some are beginning to see the light (HA).

http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/060815/20060815005577.html?.v=1

Maybe one day soon we will be offered a light duty pickup in the US with a turbo diesel option.

 

[WGJ]

Chaps, for info, check this link.
Not a lot of info here, just the power/torque figures for the engine used in the Transit van sold across Europe.

'Why not a 4 cyl diesel in a light truck?'

http://www.ford.co.uk/ie/transit/tv_specifications/tv_engines/-/-/-/-

And it can turn in very good economy. Over 40 mpg if you don't let yourself enjoy the torque figures too often.

 

[OP800]

Chevrolet will be offering one in about 2 years.
It has already been announced.
Ford had plans but don't know where they are with it.
It's going to happen.

 

[swall]

The "Chevy" engine was mentioned in the October SAE magazine. Slated for "after 2009" and will be a DOHC 4 valve V-8. Said to package in the same envelope as a small block gas V-8. Plans are for the engine to be offered in the "smaller than 8500# GVW pickups, which would include the 1500 series. No displacement given, other than "under 6.6L". Sounds like GM is doing the design work, but no mention was made of who will produce the engine.

 

[patdaly]

Just ran across this article. Knowing Cummins, it will be an inliner, and probably a 4 Cyl.

Perhaps there is a new Dodge in my future after all!

http://www.cummins.com/cmi/content.jsp?siteId=1&langId=1033&dataId=1118&newsInfo=true&menuId=4

 

[swall]

One of my friends is a metallurgist at Cummins. I will give him a buzz and see if I can get anything more specific, now that the announcement has been made.

 

[patdaly]

Please do swall!

My cousin owns a wiring harness company that does much work for Cummins, but his parts would be used much later, so he will not know anything yet.

Tell your friend you know where there is a Beta tester who could give the new engine quite a workout, heck, I'd do it for free. ;-)

 

[swall]

It will be a small V-8.

 

[patdaly]

Perhaps I will have to make up a Bellhousing for a VW TDI after all....

Thanks Swall, hard to believe Cummins fell for the hype after all the years of making the dominant truck engine.

 

[WGJ]

Ref the issues around 'small diesel' (say, less than 180 in³ displacement) engines in the USA and meeting emissions requirements, an article from a US paper.

Publication: Washington Post, October 09, 2006

Abstract: Germany's carmakers are looking to join forces to push clean diesels in the U.S. market with the Bluetec technology developed by Mercedes-Benz and diesel injection system specialist Bosch.

Article:

Germany's carmakers are looking to join forces to push clean diesels in the U.S. market with the Bluetec technology developed by Mercedes-Benz and diesel injection system specialist Bosch.

Starting in 2008, Volkswagen (VOWG.DE), its premium unit Audi, BMW (BMWG.DE) and Mercedes aim to launch and market Bluetec in the world's largest car market, where diesel has a market share of just 5 percent versus 50 percent in western Europe.

Spokespersons for Volkswagen and Mercedes parent DaimlerChrysler confirmed a report in German industry newspaper Automobilwoche to be published on Monday.

Aside from a quicker market penetration, the alliance is hoping to gain cost savings in purchasing the specific modules that mainly stem from Bosch, the world's largest automotive parts supplier.

Bluetec diesels fulfil the stringent U.S. emission norm Bin 5 that goes into effect in 2009.

Bill

 

[WGJ]

....and another:

Publication: The Detroit News, October 10, 2006

With cleaner diesel fuel now available in the United States, DaimlerChrysler AG's luxury carmaker Mercedes-Benz is preparing to roll out the first of four models in North America featuring its newest diesel technology.

Full Text (with padding edited out by me):

With cleaner diesel fuel now available in the United States, Mercedes-Benz is preparing to roll out the first of four models in North America featuring its newest diesel technology.

The E320 Bluetec sedan, which goes on sale next week in most states and in Canada, is equipped with a system that drastically lowers emissions of soot and other pollutants associated with diesel.

By the end of October, similar diesel versions of the ML sport utility vehicle and R-Class touring wagon will hit U.S. showrooms.
"The three are in the SUV market, where it makes more sense to have diesel in America," said Mercedes spokesman Geoff Day.
"To coincide with the conversion of up to 76,000 U.S. filling stations to clean diesel fuel, Mercedes-Benz is commencing sales of the E320 Bluetec in the United States and Canada in one week's time," the Stuttgart-based automaker said Monday in a statement.

The car will be available in 45 states, but not in California and other states that have adopted California's strict norms.
The automaker is refining the Bluetec system, which it developed with its supplier Robert Bosch GmbH, with the objective of selling diesel-powered vehicles in all 50 states starting in 2008.

The German publication Automobilwoche reported that BMW and Volkswagen are in talks with DaimlerChrysler about sharing Bluetec technology in an effort to increase the acceptance of diesel in North America.

DaimlerChrysler's Chrysler Group also will use the technology and has shown it in a diesel Grand Cherokee SUV.

Diesel engines are common in medium-duty and larger trucks, but U.S. sales of diesel-powered cars trail sales of hybrids.

Compared with equivalent gas engines, diesel motors are a third more fuel efficient and emit less carbon dioxide. The E320 Bluetec can ride more than 700 miles on a tank of gas -- 200 miles more than an E-Class running on gas.

But diesel suffers from an image problem with many American consumers who recall the noisy and smelly diesels of the past.

Mercedes' Bluetec technology uses a particulate filter as well as a variant of the catalytic converter to cut those emissions. The second-generation Bluetec system will use a urea-injection system to further reduce emissions.


Bill

 

[patdaly]

Thanks Bill.

It still puzzles me why reporters keep bringing up the perception problem of diesels.

Perhaps that stems from my rural background.

Bluetec looks promising, and lets not wrote Honda out of the equation, if they get theirs to work, it could render Bluetec old technology overnight.

 

[WGJ]

PatD, cheers!

I can't help thinking that, once someone that (say) commutes 60 miles a day in a 20 mpg vehicle samples the same journey in a 40mpg diesel with the same creature comforts, the money-in-the-pocket sensibilities would start to kick in and an attitude could change.

I don't understand how the old "Buick tried it and..." philosophy can still be trotted out to denigrate the latest common-rail engines. It's like comparing the latest gasoline engines with a Ford Pinto and expecting them not to have advanced since then.

Ford sell a 2.2 four cyl in the Mondeo and Jaguar X-type here in Europe that is undergoing development to meet the US "Bin 5", I believe. Performance:
155 PS (153 hp/114 kW) and 262 ft·lbf (355 N·m)

...and there's the V6 diesel that is supplied to Jaguar, Peugeot and Land Rover. Performance:
204 PS (201 hp/150 kW) and 325 ft·lbf (440 N·m)

....and the V8 used by Jag and LR. Performance:
270 PS (266 hp/199 kW) and 640 N·m (472 ft·lbf).

Some dedicated gas people might sneer at the HP figures, but 472 lb.ft. of torque at about 2700 rpm can bring a smile on.


Bill

 

[MikeHalloran]

Well, fine, the new Diesels are great, or will be when you can actually buy them...

providing of course that you buy the new Diesel fuel...

which around here is selling at a very stiff premium to gasoline.



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[WGJ]

Point taken, Mike.

However, the capability of meeting 49 States is around the corner with the less exotic engines (i.e. other than Merc) and VW, Ford, PSA, Opel, Audi and Vovlo will be introducing vehicles in 2007/2008 (I'll try and check that).

On the fuel front - we had the introduction of low sulphur fuels a few years ago now and I can't comment on what the cost of ULS diesel is with respect to gasoline as we get taxed so highly on all fuels.

Diesel costs about 5% more at the pump than 95 octane but my vehicles get 20 to 50% better mileage than their gasoline engined versions.
That extends the range of my Toyota bus from about 270 miles to about 400 miles for 5% more money. And that's an 'old' engine, not a common-rail type. A similar vehicle from Ford of Europe (7-seat MPV) with CR will do well over 40mpg at 'interstate' speeds.

I was working on a light truck programme several years ago which got transferred to the USA, and then back to us (!) and, while development work carried on in the US, there was a lot of trouble with the relatively poor quality of diesel in the USA compared to Europe and, indeed, much of the rest of the word.

The US standards of fuel available from filling stations were attuned to the wants of the big rigs (understandably) and things like cetane numbers, viscosities, cold filter plugging temps, etc., were all inferior relative to almost everywhere else.

I'm sure that, given the right direction from government (are they allowed to do that?) the huge petrochem industry in the USA could meet the challenge and give you ULS diesel at gas prices or better.
I vaguely recall something about parafins being several times more abundant in the refining process than the spirits blended to make gasoline, so the price should ultimately reflect the abundance.


Bill

 

[riktoo]

The big three dont seem to listen to buyers but rather beleive in the power of marketing to manipulate buyers into buying their planned obsolescenced junk.

So, I have to build what I really need .

I just bought a VW TDI diesel engine to transplant in my 1988 Mazda RX7.

I might have to buy a second engine to transplant into a Ford Ranger of other small japaneese pick up.

So, I am looking for an adaptor to drop the VW TDI into the rear wheel drive RX 7.
Can anybody help me find an adaptor supplier ?



SPEED+++++

 

[pennswoodsed]

Riktoo,

http://www.acmeadapters.com

makes adapters for the vw 1.6 and 1.9 for suzuki samurai's contact them for use with thr mazda trans or you might use suzuki trans in your rx7.
Where are you located ? I would be interested in kibitzing and watching for my own intended subie diesel.
For huge amounts of info everyone should check out
SamuraiDiesel@yahoogroups
Cheers,ed

 

[WGJ]

It will be very interesting to hear how you get on with your intended conversion, Keep us informed!

Bill

 

[riktoo]

Thanks for the info on adaptors.
I live in Hawkesbury Ontario Canada K6A 2R2 and if you are close it would be a pleasure to have a visit when I start this project in the spring.

This may seem an odd project to some people but the rotary guzzler only has 139 ft. pounds of torque while the VW TDI has 180 ft/lbs. and propels the VW car which is about 200 pounds heavier than the RX-7.

There have been efforts to dieselize the rotary engine but so far if I am correct,it has not been commercialized.

That`s another story though .

SPEED+++++

 

[rangerdiesel86]

Great thread. I have been looking for a way to get my hands on a small diesel pickup or cap/chassis for 6 years with no success. I owned a 1986 Ranger turbo diesel that I ordered new, and I ran it nearly 300,000 miles until an accident. That version had a Mitsubishi 2.3L coupled to a 5 sp manual with overdrive driving a limited slip rear. I still have the original brochure – this is right from the brochure:

2.3 liter turbo diesel performance
Ranger’s new 2.3 liter turbo diesel engine, available in the Regular Cab model with standard trim, delivers the high fuel economy the diesel is noted for, plus turbocharged power when you need it. This husky diesel has state-of the-art features such as electronically controlled glow plugs which eliminate the “wait-to start” light and time delay before start-up. It also has an in-line fuel heater, engine block heater. Extra sound insulation and a tachometer are included.

That was 21 years ago! That Ranger was a blast to drive; it idled about 800 and cruised 55mph at about 1800 and if you didn’t watch if you were doing 80mph with hardly a hum. The turbo kicked in, I’d say about 1400 although you couldn’t hear anything, it just seemed to have a power jump about there. The rated mpg was about 27-33 and I got a very consistent 35-42 mpg from the day I drove out of the dealer’s garage to the day it met its demise.

I am half tempted to try a conversion on an up-to-date Ranger, if I can locate one with a bad engine. I understand that same Mitsubishi 2.3L turbo diesel is still used on generator sets and other industrial applications. I’d rather wish Ford would wake up and pull the files on the 1986 Ranger and just give it to us again.