Wind Turbines 2

[evelrod]

What about the wind farm off the I-10 in the Palm Springs area? It's been 'operational' for nearly 20 years. I don't think I have ever seen more than half of them operating at one time and often less than that. How about the Dagett Solar Project in Barstow? It's been finished (operational???) since the late 70's and I only saw it in operation once in the early 80's! I see a lot of flashy videos and 'news' programs...I don't see much real change in power production. Call me a skeptic...I don't see these wind farms any where near a populated suburb (NIMBY?) being accepted...ugly scar on the landscape and too noisy.

Rod

 

[patdaly]

Rod, perhaps not in Cali, but we have them up close and personal here in Illinois.

I do not know where they get the noisy rap, unless from older blade designs, while at my sisters house, with a turbine less than 1/4 mile away, even a bird chirping sounds like a cannon shot compared to the turbine.

Could be they did both of those projects out by you for the typical Cali. feel good purpose, but out here at least, those puppies are turning whenever the wind blows, which is almost always.

 

[IRstuff]

Possibly. The turbines in Altamont Pass, where the 580 heads towards SF, have only been partially operational the last decade or so.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[evelrod]

Pat, the 500 or so turbines off I-10 near Palm springs make a good deal of noise...perhaps not much individually, but in this high density? (Well, assuming they are even operational). Anyway, the NIMBY thing was just an off the cuff, personal observation. My other gripe is the Dagett power station. I was working there for a few weeks in 1977 and it was operational. A few years later it was down and as far as I know it's still down. All I can find is some song and dance about "dust accumulation on the mirrors". Even when we were having 'rolling blackouts' a couple years back, the solar and wind farms were only minimally operational from my observation. Maybe I'm missing something. I know from several of my friends that worked on the turbines that they are maintenance intensive...

Rod

 

[davefitz]

Another issue will become paramount once the wind turbine capacity exceeds 7% of system capacity- unpredicted load shedding by the wind turinbes inplies the remaining fossil fired unit be suitasble for a step increase in load, to avoid drastic upsets in system power deliver. I understand this took out the Texas system last year.

In Germany , this is being addressed by retrofitting coal fired units with header type feedwater heaters, and an immediate 10% step increase in steam turbine output achieved by isolating steam exraction to the feedwater heaters.

 

[dpc]

In Europe, the sporadic nature of wind turbine output is stabilized by the massive French nuclear plant spinning reserve.

 

[ozmosis]

interesting article:

http://www.climatechangecorp.com/content.asp?ContentID=5344

 

[chief]

In the Orkneys they have overcome the inherent problem of wind turbines. That is when there is no wind there is no power delivery.
The turbines supply the power to a Hydrogen generator. The hydrogen is stored and used to supply a generator engine. The units are small at present, but have proved reliable and they even have a prototype Hydrogen powered car to run around the island.

Offshore Engineering&Design

 

[SomptingGuy]

Is anyone around here well versed in the physics behind turbines: the aerodynamics and fluid/structure interaction?

- Steve

 

[KENAT]

I did a report on them in A level Physics Sompting, or is that not the kind of level you meant Sompting;-).

KENAT, probably the least qualified checker you'll ever meet...

 

[j2bprometheus]

Chief-
But making the hydrogen is only about 35 % efficient.

Then using the hydrogen in an engine is probably about 35 % efficient.

So from the electicity that was generated, the hydrogen storage system would only put out about 12 % of the original energy ( 35 % * 35 %)

that's pretty poor overall efficiency especially considering the extra expense added from the hydrogen generating equipment and the engine gen set.

 

[chief]

j2bpromotheus,
I agree it is not a very efficient system, but apart from the initial capital costs of equipment and construction, the payback at 12% will take some time.
The Orkneys are a remote island area and they are looking at some self sufficiency for their power supplies. The high costs of shipping in fuel are other factors to be considered.
The present system is a small scale MOM&POP proto-type and obviously lessons will be learnt and it is a small step in advancing uses of clean alternative energy

Offshore Engineering&Design

 

[evelrod]

Interesting interview this morning with T. Boone Picket. His claim is that existing wind farms, using thirty year old technology are so lacking in efficiency that they need replacing with modern, highly efficient units.
Hmmmm? In his reference to the Palm Springs wind farm, he may be correct as I never see more than half operating at one time.... New wind farms can replace all existing power generation plants, save coal power, in ten years and stop the power 'drain' freeing up oil and gas for other uses.

His claim is that the U.S. can be well into solving it's energy problems in as few as ten years! Again, hmmmmmm, I'm just wondering how long to amortize the cost, and what cost are we talking about here? Hundreds of millions of dollars in gov't. subsidies would be required, that's a given. What political party is going to see to the spending measure that would facilitate such an undertaking? Our Congress is joined at the hip to the oil industry! What politician does not take money from oil industry lobbyists?
Then, again, I'm not the billionaire with gazillion$ invested in wind power. He is building a 4000 megawatt wind farm in Pampa, Texas....That may work there...I've was in Pampa back in '64, but I would be surprised if it had changed all that much. There will be no lack of wind at the "Top of Texas"!

I'm just wondering, how will the rest of the country accept wind farms reaching to the horizon?

Rod

 

[jmw]

A recent report for the UK suggests that the UKs planned wind farms will need something like 94% backup - this is a measure of the shortfall of power generation in the height of winter on days when the wind doesn't blow.
I think Eon also had some some truths to reveal but I'll need to find the original articles/source for both comments before I can establish what level of credibility to assign them.

JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com

 

[dpc]

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1215226547277170.xml&coll=7

Curtail hydro due to windy day?

 

[btrueblood]

Our family road trip took us thru the Columbia gorge area last week. Of the hundreds of WT's we saw, perhaps 1/20 was not operating (these are probably ~20 years newer than the WT's in California). At the Dalles dam, the spill flow (for helping salmon smolts to migrate downstream) was roughly half of the available spillway (there was a lot of snow in the hills this year, and it is still melting off) --a spectacular sight, probably close to what the original Celilo Falls behind the dam looked like. There did not appear to be even 10% of that flow coming out of the turbine outlet pool.

 

[cranky108]

The companys I know of backup wind with gas units. What do other companys use to backup wind?
Hydro's nice if you have it available, but most utilities don't have 20% hydro.

 

[dpc]

The problem with backing up wind turbines is that the resource must be on-line operating with some reserve capacity to be of much use. As wind turbines become a large slice of the generation, grid stability and frequency regulation will become bigger issues.

 

[unclesyd]

metengr
Hope this doesn't set your time table back. The TV news said that the total thief was about 60,000 lbs of Cu.

http://www.pnj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080711/NEWS01/807110343/1006/NEWS01

 

[jmw]

Some cracks in the veneer... admissions that wind power isn't all its cracked up to be:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/en...-the-environmental-benefit-of-wind-farms.html

That the industry has had to modify its declared environmental benefits downwards is because:

A wind farm industry source admitted: "It's not ideal for us. It's the result of pressure by the anti-wind farm lobby."

referring to the admission that wind energy 'displaces' not the 860 grams of carbon dioxide emission for every kilowatt hour of electricity generated as originally claimed but only 430 grams.

Worryingly, one response suggests that we now need twice as many wind turbines....

Rr, no thank you.
This was a dodgy deal to begin with and what this really means, or should mean, is this ain't the solution and the cost benefits do not justify this solution.

However, politicians being what they are and no economic collapse will stand in their way, we are going to tighten our belts and go for it... you wait and see. Maybe the huge investment in wind turbines will be seen as a some sort of modern "New Deal", perhaps a return of the Civilian Conservation Corps? not the TVA or Hoover Dam but wind farms and whatever else the new scientific advisor to Obama comes up with (see

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/uploads/2007_11-6_Forum_(NXPowerLite).pdf

for the shape of things to come).



JMW

http://www.ViscoAnalyser.com