Wind Turbines 2

[evelrod]

I am just SO shocked!!!

Live around one of these "wind farms" or travel by one and tell me "this is the future"! The whole idea smacks of overt commercialism to me. I am not an advocate, as you may have surmised. "Trust in govt", and trust that T. Boone has OUR best interests at heart is much akin to 'I will respect you in the morning, I promise'...

Rod

 

[JLSeagull]

I guess that I am a believer. When I travel in far west Texas I see lots of wind generators along the ridges. Clearly someone sees these as a commercial venture. I often see the blades headed west on Interstate 10 driving from San Antonio to Houston; mostly Vestas. One of the failures on YouTube was a Vestas with a brake failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o

With the next new deal I might bet a bit of money on direct burial high voltage transmission cable in addition to a wind or solar farm.

 

[eyec]

T Boone Pickens has put his wind farm on hold because of the drop in oil prices.

says they are not competetive at these low prices!



Steven C
Senior Member
ThirdPartyInspections.com

 

[dpc]

Clearly someone sees these as a commercial venture

But only because of the energy tax credits - if it wasn't for the tax credits available, I think there would far fewer wind farms being installed.

 

[cranky108]

Has anyone calculated the other costs of wind generation? Like the cost of following the wind, or the fact that coal, which is cheep, can't be used to follow the wind. We have to use more natural gas, higher cost, to follow the wind.
And how about the cost of added transmission to connect the wind to the grid?

 

[dpc]

Like the cost of following the wind

Not sure what you mean by this....

 

[JLSeagull]

The externalities associated with wind are minimal compared to every aspect of coal derived electrical power. At least natural gas burns cleanly. Wind is renewable. The supply of natural gas is diminishing - and cost is increasing. A few major problem exist with wind. The more reliable sources for wind and solar are that they are not near most population centers. This requires transportation and distribution costs. Where wind is near a population center the people want the pretty view without obstruction by the tall wind generating towers.

Coal is not renewable. You trash lots of real estate to remove and process coal. Transportation is by rail although the power could be generated far from the cities too.

 

[stevenal]

dpc,

I think he means the cost the load following source that is needed when the wind dies down.

 

[cranky108]

Exactly,
I have seen what happens win a 100MW wind farm goes from 100MW to zero in a five minuite time peroid. Consitering that the following unit was a gas fired steam unit, it just could not ramp that fast.
It would be worse with a coal fired unit, which is what you would want to do if you were looking out for your customers pocket books.
A gas turban would be faster, but with the price of gas, until recently, it would have increased the cost to the customers.

Properly wind power, and all it's costs, should be sold to customers willing to pay more for electricity.

So consiter the ramp rates, and what units must be running to accomidate 15%, 20%, or even 30%, MW production on your system. It gets worse if the expected wind production is in KWH, rather than MW capacity.

Not that I'm aginst wind power, but I am aginst mandated higher electricity costs.

 

[evelrod]

Bottom line?

They are huge.
They are ugly.
They obliterate the 'view'.
They are noisy.
They are not efficient when the wind dies.
They raise havoc when the wind VARIES.
AND, most of all...NIMBY! (Nimbies elect the legislature)

Anyway, the nimbies and OPEC will kill it in the long run.

Rod

 

[JLSeagull]

The really big wind generaters are huge. I don't find them to be any more ugly than cell phone towers. A wind generator could only obliterate the view of you are standing next to it. However, they would detract from a pristine view, just like power transmission lines or cell phone towers.

I don't hear wind generators when driving in my car. When out in the oil-patch I hear the pumping jacks. They too are noisy when no background noise exists.

Gas turnine generators are not energy efficient whether or not the wind dies. Gas turbines can produce the peak generation capacity as the wind varies. Widely spaced wind power farms can compensate from local variation. However, a high pressure system becalms large areas.

I would love to have about 20 wind generators in my back yard. I would also love a back yard large enough to support about 20 wind generators.

 

[BigInch]

JL. If you had a back yard with 1 of them, I bet you'd be desparate to move the house after about a week. Next time you drive past ONE of them that's spinning, stop the car and roll down the window. It also seems to be a case of a dBa meter not telling the whole story either, as the actual sound levels are not often above the background noise. That may be due to the background wind noise blowing on the mic or something, don't know why, but I can tell you personally that I know that they make noise, a lot of it, and it is not an agreeable noise either. I really can't believe there is any controversy about that. I would definately NOT want one of these things anywhere near MY property. All I can say is that I'm greatful for folks like yourself that don't seem to mind them, so please buy as much property as you can and build, build, build.

**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[JLSeagull]

If BigInch thinks that wind generators have an unpleasant noise level then I need to stop off the highway next opportunity and listen. I might even drive up to the gate for a check.

 

[cranky108]

Has anyone noticed that most of the wind power is where people don't want to live. Maybe it is because of wind.
At some of these locations, with out the wind tower, the cost is very low. So you could have a back yard that big (good luck on finding a job).
But some western states are offering incentives for hireing people in remote locations, which makes wind farms more proffitable.

 

[davidbeach]

Farmers in eastern Oregon and Washington love the wind turbines; the royalties from a single tower produce more income than the surrounding farm land. Not that hard to find farmers willing to sign up to host wind farms.

 

[evelrod]

Ahhhhhh!!! Finally, the REAL reason.

Rod

 

[cranky108]

If by real reason you mean money, well you should have known.

The problem is these things are being forced onto utilities with no consiteration on the effects on the customers.

They have there place, don't get me wrong. But when they negatively effect the cost to the customers, it's a problem.

At least with solar the generation curve somewhat follows the load curve.

 

[BigInch]

JL, I was driving by one of our local wind turbine farms today, but didn't have the camera handy. Next week I'll be sure I have it. I'll grab some video and sound bytes and post it on You Tube for you. There are so many of them right on the highway down to Tariffa they make you dizzy just driving by all of them. Really bad if they are between you and the setting sun. Damn near gives me epileptic fits.

My brother is doing some work for a company that wants to buy up all wind farm leases they can from WY to SD/MN and sell the huge package off to a big wind utility. If you still think you want wind turbines, get there before he does. Fortunately that's NIMBY!

**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/

 

[JLSeagull]

I have been watching the PBS episodes of "Spain - On the Road Again" with Mario Batali, Gwyneth Platrow, Mark Bittman adnd Claudia Bassols. I have seen quaint old Spanish wind mills on the program but not the big modern units. I suppose that the camera crews don't like them too.
;-)

I rarely take I-10 very far west of San Antonio. However, many ridges are covered with wind generators in West Texas. The Texas Comptrollers office published a wind engergy report showing Texas with a 4296 MW capacity at the end of 2007 out of 16,596 MW for the 50 states. California was next with 2439 MW followed by MN, WA and IA all over 1100 MW. As suspected, the Texas Panhandle has the largest wind potential. This suggests that the western plains are big potential wind growth areas - and not among the largest power useage areas.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/pdf/11-WindEnergy.pdf

 

[BigInch]

The new scourge of Don Quijote!!!

Its getting really UGLY near Tariffa.
I'll shoot some video & sound bytes for you tomorrow.

The installations in the lower right are actually in the Canary Islands, not Morocco.

The biggest problem in developing US wind and solar power gen is the investment in transmission lines required to get the production to markets. Seems like I've heard a figure of 800 Billion. ..small change for you guys these days.

**********************
"Pumping systems account for nearly 20% of the world’s energy used by electric motors and 25% to 50% of the total electrical energy usage in certain industrial facilities." - DOE statistic (Note: Make that 99.99% for pipeline companies)

http://virtualpipeline.spaces.live.com/