Winter tires that don't work in snow 3

[MintJulep]

Company recalls more than 541,000 winter tires over lack of traction in snow

Owner notification letters should be mailed out by February 1, 2025.

local12.com

 

[CWB1]

Also, where do I go right across the border in the USA to find 200kph speed limits?

Cross from Windsor into Detroit and you go from an 80 kph limit that's strictly enforced to a rarely enforced 110, with traffic averaging 140 in the city at rush hour.

I drive MI to northern New England several times annually and generally prefer Ontario vs Ohio. Ontario is ~200 km less mileage but very close time-wise if I dont get stuck at the crossing, then its slower. Ontario generally has nicer weather (upwind of the lake effect), more frequent and nicer rest areas, better scenery, better roads, better variety of food, and Canadian norms are American novelties (brands, etc). On the downside, I'm a bit narcoleptic so the slow speeds make me nervous at night, everything is expensive, and IME the drivers are terrible. Stateside most semis are driven very defensively/cautiously but on the northern side many are reminiscent of rural Asia with aggressive driving and disregard for others nearby.

I've used snow tires for daily winter-driving sports cars bc even with modern traction control, RWD and 400+ hp is a handful in snow/ice. I'd also install them if I owned a fleet-option 3/4+ ton pickup with the rock hard commercial tires. Otherwise, all-seasons work fine.

 

[dgallup]

Traction of tires is spooky.
Cold snow?
Wet snow?
Cold wet roads?
Cold dry roads?
Warm wet roads?
Warm dry roads?
There is no tire out there that is good on more than 3 of those.

Tires used to be a lot less specialized than they are today. I had a '79 Mustang that I drove all over the north east on a set of Goodyear Eagle GT tires. Went to nearly every ski area in VT and NH on the snowiest days and commuted on the slushiest and/or coldest days and drove the wheels off it in the summer. That was not known for being a good car in the snow but all I ever did was throw a 100 pounds of sand in the back to improve the weight distribution slightly. Did the same thing with an '85 RX7 GSL-SE on factory Pirelli P6 tires.

Then I bought the latest and greatest Michelin XGT tires in '87 or '88. Not really any better than the P6's in the dry, a bit better in the wet and a nightmare on snow. I was driving to Pittsburgh for Christmas with the intention of going to NH for New Years. I got into light snow on the WV turnpike on a 4% grade and could not keep going, the traction was SOOOO LOW. I had to pull off and put on my set of radial chains and proceed at a very low speed. Finally got behind a salt & cinder truck and took the chains off. White knuckled it the rest of the way, doing a nice Danny Sullivan 360 spin and win in the middle of one bridge. Got to the lowest point in my parents driveway and parked it. Put the chains back on the next day and drove to the Goodyear store and bought a set of F32 radial snows. With those I could stop on the steepest ice patch going up to my parents barn and pull out with ease. When I looked at the Michelin's, the bead had broken on every tire when Goodyear dismounted them, that rubber was so brittle at low temperatures. But the Goodyear F32's were hands down the best tire I ever drove in the snow and with the excellent weight distribution of the RX7 it was unstoppable until the snow got so deep it started plowing. They were much better in snow than the all terrain tires with the 3 peak & snowflake symbol I put on my truck. And my Corvette with Michelin Pilot Sport 4S tires stays parked if it's below 40 degrees.

 

[IRstuff]

running some all-weather tires (Michelin CrossClimate2) year round, since they're supposed to be pretty good at everything.

I think the all weather tires use a compromise rubber formulation, so while they're likely OK for occasional snow and ice, extended freezing conditions likely compromise their traction, because the rubber will tend to be too stiff for the conditions.

 

[IRstuff]

Stateside most semis are driven very defensively/cautiously

This must be an East Coast thing; semis in California seem to now think that the entire width of the freeway is fair game, even if they are only driving 1 mph faster than the truck in front of them. I was just driving down CA 57, and semis took up 3 of the 4 southbound lanes, because 1 mph difference is money, I guess. And, since they're not paying any heed to the 55 mph speed limit for semis, they no longer bother yielding on merges, since that would require them the use their precious brakes to slow down their excessively fast mass.

 

[BrianPetersen]

Cross from Windsor into Detroit and you go from an 80 kph limit that's strictly enforced to a rarely enforced 110, with traffic averaging 140 in the city at rush hour.

On the Canadian side, the nuisance with the Ambassador bridge is that you are stuck driving about 4 km on Huron Church Road (surface street) before you get to motorway. The new Gordie Howe bridge, which is supposed to open later this year, will fix this.

But after you're past Huron Church Road, the only places on Highway 401 with 80 km/h speed limits are in construction zones (of which, there are always a few). The rest of it is mostly 100 km/h (too slow) with several sections recently raised to 110 km/h. It's rare that patrol officers will ticket for less than 20 km/h above, and speed cameras (which rumours indicate will ticket at 10 km/h above) are only on municipal roads marked "community safety zone". And I think Huron Church Road is one of those ...

 

[GregLocock]

Here's some numbers for winter and summer tires,

 

[EdStainless]

I am on a plan where I buy Nokians in the fall.
Then I get two good winters out of them without taking off in the summer.
On the Sienna it is harder on the front tires, so I am buying a new pair each fall.

 

[waross]

Respectfully Greg;
Those snow and ice numbers are almost meaningless without a temperature.

 

[GregLocock]

Hmm, not specified. I can't find anything more detailed either.

 

[LionelHutz]

I would suspect ice covered roads are at or under 0*C. Same with snow covered roads.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

No they aren't apparently.

The snow acts as insulation and ground heat can take bottom layer above freezing.

And salt keeps the fluid below freezing liquid under it....

According to a Finnish bloke at work....

Just passing on what he said...

It seems the Finnish have a whole science centred round it. They also do tracked vehicle performance as well.

 

[drawoh]

Relevant editorial.

COLUMN: It's time for Ontario to mandate winter tires

Relying on road salt to pave way for safe conditions isn't sustainable, columnist says

www.barrietoday.com

Barrie is located north of Toronto, south of Georgian Bay. It is located in Ontario's snow belt, and it is where lots of Torontonians go to ski. It snows way more there than it does here.

 

[LionelHutz]

LOL, the roads sure as hell won't be 20*C and ice covered. Who cares if the road is -20*C or -2*C or 0.5*C, the snow and ice covered test results will still favor the winter tire.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I must admit I have always found tyres amazing pieces of engineering.

 

[GregLocock]

They are, and the security requirements at their development centres are more stringent than for Defence!

 

[MintJulep]

Who cares if the road is -20*C or -2*C or 0.5*C

It actually matters quite a lot.

If there's a water film between tire and ice it's a lot more slippery.

Sun, contact pressure and heat from the tire can all contribute to a water film, but at some point there isn't enough heat to let the film happen.

 

[btrueblood]

It actually matters quite a lot.

If there's a water film between tire and ice it's a lot more slippery.

Sun, contact pressure and heat from the tire can all contribute to a water film, but at some point there isn't enough heat to let the film happen.

100%.

As a wet-sider in Washington state, we get snow and ice on the road when temperatures are right around 0 C. The snow/packed snow/ice that forms almost always has a film of water atop it, and the result is slicker than snot on teflon. I used to regularly have to drive over the mountains to the east side of the state for work, where winter temperatures were much colder, typically -10 C or colder. Snow there is sticky, and it creaks and squeaks when you walk on it or drive on it. Having grown up used to wet snow, cold snow is easy. But coming over the pass back to the wet side, where the snow gets wet - I always move over to the truck lane on the 3 main upgrades, where the sand and chains from trucks break down the ice, even though the lane speed is much slower. Faster vehicles who obviously don't know the difference always blow past on the upgrade, and then spin out when they hit their brakes on the subsequent downgrade.

 

[IRstuff]

This is what Pirelli says about the subject

Stopping distances for winter vs summer tyres​

Using winter and summer tyres in different seasons always ensures optimal stopping distances whatever the time of year. If you use summer tyres in the winter, when temperatures fall below 7°C, stopping distances may be as much as twice those of winter tyres, especially on wet roads.

If ice or snow is present, stopping distances may even reach eight or 10 times those of winter tyres, resulting in significant risks for road users. The same applies to winter tyres used in the summer, when the softer compound under performs and reduces the structural rigidity of the tyre, considerably increasing stopping distances.
When temperatures fall to 0°C during the winter, a car fitted with winter tyres can be stopped at a speed of 30mph within about 35 metres, whereas this distance could be as much as 45 metres on summer tyres. The presence of ice further widens this gap, making the benefits of using the right tyres for the right season even clearer.

https://www.pirelli.com/tyres/en-gb...ps/seasons/difference-summer-and-winter-tyres

 

[TugboatEng]

If I remember correctly, a M&S tire in the US only needs to have a siping pattern to achieve the qualification. The siping doesn't really make a significant performance difference. AT tires work best. The regulatory bodies are what they are.

 

[MintJulep]

The snow/packed snow/ice that forms almost always has a film of water atop it, and the result is slicker than snot on teflon.

This is where studs - long studs - are really helpful.