Women Engineers.... 44

[controlnovice]

My manager has been looking to fill 3 engineering positions over the last 9 months, and one of them over 12 months.

Just informed that he's offered, and the persons accepted, all 3 positions.

All three are women.

These are not specialist positions, but generic, small project engineers.

Some of the older male engineers think it is a quota that has to be filled.

I hope they are proved wrong. The positions are difficult enough as it is, but having to work with others who think the job was given due to meet a quota, and not based on merit, makes it so much more difficult.

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[GregLocock]

The cynic in me suggests that the average recruitment process is so poorly done (for a variety of reasons) that selecting candidates based on gender, or hair color, for that matter, probably won't make it any worse.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[lacajun]

controlnovice, I know a civil engineer, female, running her own company. She's endured biases but ultimately even women have to be able to perform the work to stay in business. When men understand this, the less heartache everyone will have.

I've talked with a number of people in the last several months about my experiences with men in engineering. Invariably people are surprised and I've not mentioned the most difficult things I've endured. I've mentioned the least difficult experiences. I decided to blog about some of my experiences. I'm sure it will be an unpopular move but it won't be the first and it won't be the last either. We are imperfect people in an imperfect world.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[SLTA]

Lacajun, would you share your blog address? I'd love to read it.

 

[lacajun]

http://www.pamelaquillin.com/blog.html

I'm not the best writer in many ways. I'm more interested in getting the experiences out in case it helps young women in some small way. One of my Christian friends, who is an engineer and female, encouraged me to help young women know they're not alone and the behaviors are as old as time.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[KENAT]

lacajun, I don't know if that guy's behavior was typical of the men you've encountered in the profession but fundamentally it sounds like the guy was an all round feminine sanitary product and the bag it came in.

I'm given to understand from my wife's experiences you find those all kinds of places, including some that are heavily female dominated.

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[lacajun]

KENAT, the stories only get better or worse depending on your perspective. That is the point of this thread, IMHO. Men's behaviors are leaving a lot to be desired, when it comes to women in engineering. That was the driving factor for me to contemplate leaving the profession. I believe it is a motivator for many to leave the profession.

I know women can be just as bad, from what I've heard. I don't have a lot of experience with women, since engineers from the feminine gender of the species are rare. The female engineers I have worked with were very good people and I had no issues with them. They helped rather than hindered.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[KENAT]

Sorry, my point was that my wife has encountered similar a$$holes (I was thinking men but actually a good few women too as you raise the issue) in fields where there are lots of women (healthcare, social work, insurance...).

Are the people you have unfortunately encountered a$$hole engineers, or a$$holes that happen to be engineers? Is there really a higher ratio of these folks in engineering than in many other sectors (especially if adjusted for gender)?

Again we're running the risk of trying to use anecdotes as data.

However, some of the surveys previously posted seemed to show that for the most part the women leaving engineering were doing so for reasons not directly related to gender.

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[lacajun]

KENAT, you ask a question I've pondered.

I've worked with men who are absolute gems. But there are some who work triple time to give men a bad rap. Those many women consistently run into. My female friends in the high tech sector have not run into the harsh discrimination women experience in older industries. Smart, female engineers in the high tech sector are a given.

I had an opportunity to share some of my experiences with a female physician last year. She is probably about 15 years older than me, which would put her about 67. She thought she had experienced some rough treatment from male physicians but nothing compared to what I experienced. She thought my experiences were terrible! I told her my least negative stories, which made me start thinking about male engineers differently.

There weren't many women doctors, when she began her career and it was an adjustment for the men to work with women. She doesn't experience much these days. I cannot say the same.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC

 

[beej67]

OK, I'll bite even though last time it offended a few people.

Why should we encourage more women, or any other identifiable group, into engineering essentially at the expense of other 'over represented' groups?

We need to encourage women in particular because of this:

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[KENAT]

? Explain that jump in logic to me Beej67

Why does the fact a slightly larger % of current US students are female automatically mean that we need to encourage more females into engineering?

Plus, it appears the trend may be flattening out.

If there are enough male engineering students to keep the ranks swollen, then a shortage of them isn't good logic for encouraging women instead is it?

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[beej67]

The trends look linear to me. And in a non-flat way.



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[patprimmer]

Maybe that simply means that the education system has swung toward favouring women now.

There are several reasons why despite the high number of women college graduates, women are still under represented in engineering.

One very valid reason might be that not that many women find engineering attractive.

Another might be that women are now out-competing men for spots in higher paid professions like medicine & law leaving less women and more men for engineering.

Another might be that to many existing engineers still discriminate against women and drive them away, or at least many women have that perception.

I still think there are characteristics built into our DNA that carry over from ancient times that are dependent on evolutionary advantages at those times. Like men tend to be taller and more muscular, hairier and louder and more aggressive and gather in large groups and also tend to be colour blind but have good night vision while women tend to be shorter, petite, smooth soft and more rounded, have less hair, gather in small groups and are quieter and display less aggression and have better colour vision but poorer night vision.

As a part of this men seem more inclined toward maths and physics while women seem more inclined toward language and arts.

If this is hard wired into DNA, there is precious little we can really do about it other than to rejoice and accept when a woman does choose to enter engineering, especially if she is one of the few who has a real aptitude for it

Regards
Pat
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[KENAT]

Actually Pat, according to some article my Mrs was reading supposedly in some tests women do better than men on math etc.

Not sure of all the conditions, but I was a little surprised as I'd also read about boys slightly outperforming in those areas on average.

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[patprimmer]

Certainly I think girls on average are more mature sooner than boys and more inclined to be studious rather than frivolous and adventurous, that is on average.

Regards
Pat
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[ilovechickens]

Being of the non-male gender, and having worked in the engineering field in the UK for almost 20 years, during which time I also had children (which did result in me taking 3 months unpaid maternity leave each time - sorry could not help it as hubby refused to take the time off -although he did take the morning off the day the first baby was born and being very considerate I pushed baby out in 2 hours, meaning after hubby left work in the morning to take me to hospital, he was back in the office in the afternoon) I do find the comments about woman having to take 3 months off for maternity leave being a problem for companies a little ironic.

My main gripe on this issue is that and I am sure this is not limited to the engineering field) I am almost made to feel like I am a silly b***h for getting pregnant and wanting 3 months off whereas when my collegues (male or female) ask for 3 months extended leave to travel they are wished on voyage - have fun, we'll see you when you get back.....

Other than that though I will say I have never really had any problems with me being a female engineer (and I am in a male dominated area - only female engineer in company). Perhaps this is because I can swear as well as the next guy and often do. I have found most of the people I work with to be gentlemen (even if some are gentleman of dubious character). If I did have problems being a woman earlier in my career it tended to came from other female engineers who seemed to like their special status of being a woman in a mans world and did not want it threatened. Again as time has moved forward there has been less of this going on.

When I do leave engineering it will have nothing to do with being a woman but will be because I am sick of being undervalued, underpaid and underappreciated (like all engineers feel sometimes - male or female) . However at the moment I love my job dispite all the crap that can go with it and so put up with all the rubbish because I still look forward to going into the office in the morning.

I often wonder if woman leave engineering because they may have more financial freedom to do so. I am sure a higher percentage of female engineers are married with working spouses than the other way around (i.e. male engineers with working spouses) and so it is not such a drain on a household income for one of the couple to change careers when there are two people earning in the household. Also many men I work with feel the responsability (real or imaginary) of being the main breadwinner and much provide for their family and hence would put up with much more crap than some of us females would.

 

[SLTA]

Pat, there are a ton of studies showing girls are even or slightly better with boys at math when they're young, but it starts getting beaten out of them by middle school. Trust me, it takes a LOT of self-confidence to stick with being smart as a middle school girl, because it's totally uncool. So when I hear that most females aren't hard-wired for math, I get a little testy.

What turbokiwi said is right. My first pregnancy, I refused to go stand on scaffolding in another town in 95+ degree weather for all summer, and it was made very clear that I wasn't being a team player. Hello, I was growing another human being! And my (also unpaid) maternity leave was approved, only to be told at the end that I was a week over and had to pay my company. Good times, good times.

Now I'm all crabby. Grrr.

 

[KENAT]

slta - being a smart boy wasn't exactly a route to the top of the popularity charts either. Ah, the childhood chants of 'know it all Ken' - though of course by the standards of this site I barely knew anything.

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[patprimmer]

Linnea

That's not how it worked out with my kids, in fact exactly the opposite.

My daughter was always excellent at maths and highly competitive about it. It was my son who scummed to peer group pressure in junior high to reduce his performance to match the mediocrity of his peer group, but exceptions do not make a rule.

My real point is even if given exactly even opportunity, it does not necessarily follow that the the distribution would be even due to personal choice and comfort zones.

Regards
Pat
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[beej67]

Maybe that simply means that the education system has swung toward favouring women now.

Supposedly a huge contributing factor is how the "competition" has been sucked out of school. Women operate much better in noncompetitive environments, men better in competitive environments, and the women (who are in charge of the education system) have rewritten the rules for grade school to make sure there's no more element of competition. Which makes it harder for men to engage the material. They get bored, would rather play sports and video games, etc.

Multiple articles on it, Google around for yourself.


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