Women in Engineering II 54

[lacajun]

Since the first post on this is closed, I decided to begin a new post.

This is a dated but interesting report that I'm working my way through. As I read through it, I see improvements that can be made to benefit women as well as men.

Women in Engineering: An Untapped Resource

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[beej67]

How do you think people would react if a guy made a similar comment to a woman who talked about being sexually harassed in the workplace?

And therein lies the rub, particularly with some of the studies referenced above, like the one in Nature.

Were the genders reversed in the dialog above, not only would CWB1 be a victim of one sexual harassment incident, he'd be victim of two. The second one literally coming from someone who is by all appearances heavily against sexual harassment in the workplace. But since he's male, he's a victim of zero.

I'm not one to cry about double standards. Double standards do not bother me in the least, quite honestly. But the fact that double standards exist taints the data, which makes studies like the one referenced in Nature above completely unreliable at quantifying a problem honestly.

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[lacajun]

Touche. But it was a joke. I don't know anything about CWB1 and don't even know that CWB1 is male. There are a lot of unknowns on the internet including myself. However, I am public so there isn't much guessing about some aspects of my life.

Both genders can take things too far and that is what I would like to see end in the workplace. That is my overarching point.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[beej67]

Touche. But it was a joke.

I know it was a joke, and you know it, and CWB1 knows it. And in a prior climate, it would end there. But if that happens in the workplace today, even between three people who all know it's a joke, an eavesdropper who doesn't get the joke can initiate a sexual harassment claim with HR, leading to "mandatory sensitivity training," getting passed over for promotions, or literally getting someone fired.

So is today's climate better than the prior climate? What trade-offs have we made? I'm not going to answer, because I think that's probably simply a matter of opinion.

My main point is this ... what ratio of the data points in the Nature study linked above were jokes? There's no good way to know.

 

[CWB1]

Waaaaaaaah!!! My feelings! JK.

I can't lie, I feel somewhat proud that Pam was comfortable enough with me to make the joke as she and I tend to have opposing views on these matters. I also consider her one of the more serious, professional posters here so a joke like that is doubly appreciated. Thanks for the smile.

An interesting, related dichotomy that many veterans like myself struggle with surrounds the lack of candor in civilian workplaces. In the military you could speak significantly more freely with only a need for very limited tact. Worst case, if someone didn't like what you said then you'd either get a bit of free exercise or you'd agree to let your fists settle the argument with a couple of your peers acting as referee. Ultimately, nobody held grudges and everybody was "in it" together. No doubt it was a rough lifestyle due to various other reasons but the acceptance of candor, forgiveness of faux-pas, and simple common courtesy ensured personal interactions were never really an issue. Among the folks I served with, there were plenty that I didn't care for due to petty personal reasons (found them annoying, personal habits, etc), but yet I'd still seriously consider traveling to their funeral. By contrast, I have met many in the civilian world that have been offended by honesty and retaliated with petty grievances who I don't think I could sympathize with if something truly terrible were to happen. At some point the petty garbage makes someone "not a good person" due to lack of forgiveness. In any case, I don't know where the proverbial line in the sand is on feelings vs forgiveness vs professionalism vs etc, but I suspect its gotten worse, moving toward "extreme HR" due to modern job-hopping. I often wonder if more employees stuck with an employer most/all of their career if folks wouldn't act a bit better toward one another. An interesting quote that many former military have claimed sums it up best is copied below, and the most frustrating part is highlighted. Apologies in advance for strong language, ****'ed it out intentionally.

“Life after the military is hard because from day one, we’re told where rank and how to act accordingly. You spend years knowing exactly where everyone stands in the hierarchy of command, ranked by accomplishments, intelligence, and time in service.
Cut to life after getting out…
None of you know your f***ing place. Everyone thinks they’re the most special flower and I’m over here losing my s**t because I’m trying to stay in my designated lane but people keep crashing into me. I’m the bad guy when I verbally assist them back to where they belong.
I genuinely struggle with this every single day."

 

[Sparweb]

CWB1,

Would you like to create a new thread on that subject right there?
I'd like to engage a little more, but it would get this one sidetracked if I did.
I think this could attract the attention from other veterans, too, and possibly others who feel the same but for different reasons.

In terms of specifically "women in engineering", how fair would it be to suggest that strictly hierarchical systems (like the military) are more likely to make women feel uncomfortable than men? If I understand CWB1 correctly, in the military your display of respect for the others' rank allows you to dispute their opinion without any disrespect taken. A hierarchy where status is not based on rank but rather on seniority, skill, or simply popularity is less stable, so any challenge to an opinion is more likely a threat to the other's status. I feel like I'm also speaking about the stereotypical ways men organize vs. women organize, here.

If that's not a satisfactory line of discussion, I could suggest a different example, such as a female member of my office whose official rank is rather low, but enjoys a high status today given her proven skill and recent success on some projects. In such a case I can see how that status is less stable than just giving her the promotion she deserves. I am not in a position to give her that raise, but until she gets it, I should be aware that debate or disagreement will not be as welcome as I'd expect. Is there a gender split that would make this more likely to be a problem?

Thanks again CWB, this seems to be a very useful idea.

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[beej67]

In terms of specifically "women in engineering", how fair would it be to suggest that strictly hierarchical systems (like the military) are more likely to make women feel uncomfortable than men?

I'd like to ask some of the military folks in my family this question, but the only of our women in the service is a one star general that outranks all the men. Doh!


Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[beej67]

So here's a doozy that just hit the news cycle..

https://twitter.com/TheTodayShow/status/1166818348035796992

University in Sydney Australia is going to flat out lower the official admittance standards for women in their engineering program, in an effort to get more women enrolled in engineering.

My first question is whether they'd be willing to do the same thing for doctors, if not then why not.

Hydrology, Drainage Analysis, Flood Studies, and Complex Stormwater Litigation for Atlanta and the South East -

http://www.campbellcivil.com

 

[hokie66]

A more detailed article:

https://www.theguardian.com/austral...-entry-score-adjustment-for-female-applicants

Some of the female engineers quoted do a good job of debunking this approach.

 

[Ron247]

Guess I think differently. I care less about what you have to do to get in, and more about what you must do to get out with the degree. As long as they are not giving the degree away, I do not care much about how high someone scored to get in. I care about what they did to get out successfully. I do care more about why they scored it more than the score itself.

If there is a limited number of academic slots, I guess the higher your score the better for placement reasons. Suppose 1,000 is perfect. One person makes a 980 and another makes a 500. But once in college, they both score very close to the same. The 980 person is a 3.48 GPA and the 500 is a 3.39 GPA in the same courses. Who would you hire based solely on that information? I think I would chance the 500 over the 980.

 

[GregLocock]

Most states in Australia have enacted laws that allow you to select which gender you claim to be (in Victoria you can reselect every 12 months). I'll give a frozen chicken to the first person who selects female so as to qualify for lower entrance requirements.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[CWB1]

Schools stateside have done this and worse for decades to meet their gender and racial quotas. Its sad to see schools overseas falling into these nonsensical PC traps, but not surprising that its happening.

 

[Ron247]

This week, I fashion myself as an illegal outer space alien. I feel helpless because no one is advocating for me. They care about everyone but me. Incidentally, us outer space aliens have no gender, so I cannot even capitalize on that.

 

[JohnRBaker]

My school had a reputation for having minimal entrance requirements (now this was back in the 60's and 70's). The idea was that everyone should have the chance to get a good engineering education. However, it also had a reputation for people not making it past the first year. My brother (one year behind me) only lasted 3 months, but then that was in 1967 and he was trying to avoid the draft. After flunking out after only a single term, he enlisted in the Army and ended-up doing two tours in Vietnam (he retired a few years ago from the Michigan Army National Guard as a First Sargent but not before serving a tour in Iraq).

Today, their admission standards are much higher, but it's still got a good reputation for giving people from middle-income, blue-collar backgrounds the chance for a world-class education. I don't have the current statistics but I know back when I was there, in the late 60's early 70's, that the vast majority of students represented the first members of their families to have gone to college. I know that was the case with me as my father never even finished high school.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
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The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
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[lacajun]

beej67 and CWB1, your responses have impressed me and that's a difficult thing to achieve. In fact beej67, I didn't know you were joking.

I've had men call me stud muffin and in the contexts in which it was uttered, it was quite humorous and we all enjoyed good laughs. I've worked with some truly outstanding men. I've also worked with some truly troubled men and management was not up to the task of handling them and the situations they created. That's troublesome in itself.

CWB1, I never served in the military but I've struggled in Corporate America because I'm too direct. I grew up in a family that worked very hard from sunup to sundown, i.e., farmers, who also had day jobs. They lacked the time to be indirect so they were direct. When there's work to be done, it's to be done and without complaints, feet dragging, shirking of responsibility, accusations, lying, etc.

Grandma said a few times, "If you don't work, you don't eat." I had not spent much time around her and didn't know if she was kidding or not; however, I decided to not test her. That made an impression on my 6 yo brain. I don't think that lesson translates to Corporate America, sadly. Once I was in the fields working with everyone else, I learned no complaints, feet dragging, etc.

There is a hierarchy and some will let you know they outrank you, which is fine and they should. They have the authority and responsibility to make decisions that go with their job title and position in the org chart. I've known engineers that disrespected that concept and were promptly shown the door. I've been criticized for being "brutally honest" but those accusing me of that neglected to notice that I dispassionately and respectfully laid out the facts. I didn't call anyone names, accuse anyone of malfeasance or neglect, etc. I did tell them facts they didn't want to hear. Why? It meant they had to make some hard decisions and approach upper management about those decisions. Never pleasant prospects for people averse to the tasks and whose job it was to ensure those problems didn't arise.

Being direct is something I think more people need. Otherwise, constructive criticism can be couched in such touchy-feely (indirect) language the point is not apparent to those intended. Being direct with people doesn't mean it's done disrespectfully, maliciously, etc. I think that's where some get confused and make it very personal, in a very negative way.

I wish humanity was a better lot but we're not. There are men and women that seek opportunity to cause trouble, take needless offense, cash in, etc. That will always be, I think. But we do need good managers up to the task of really managing people. I lost respect for quite a few managers, who didn't properly address the problem people. Some managers were the problem, too. It's been a mixed bag.

I've known quite a few men that weren't up to the task of engineering. They didn't understand mathematics, programming, etc. Instead of getting hung up on women in engineering let's get hung up on those who can't do it, whether male or female.

Pamela K. Quillin, P.E.
Quillin Engineering, LLC
NSPE-CO, Central Chapter
Dinner program:

http://nspe-co.org/events.php

 

[Ron247]

My favorite saying is by Henry Ford. “Whether you think you can, or you think you can't--you're right.” I am a registered engineer today because of the wisdom of this quote that I never heard or saw until 15 years after I obtained my PE license. We are discussing why some “characteristic person” is not in engineering. I really believe the “Can’t” word is one major reason why. 50 people can tell you that you can’t succeed at something that is not an unreasonable goal or desire and it will not matter. But if YOU ever believe them, you will fail. It is a self-fulfilling prophecy. How many of these “profiled people” have had numerous friends and relatives possibly tell them they may not succeed. The intent may be that they do not want them to feel bad when they fail but in fact, if they ever convince that kid they Can’t, they Can’t. If you convince them they can’t before they even try, well they never enroll in engineering. Why enroll and fail?

I started in construction at age 18 as a ditch digger but was a carpenter by 21. I learned carpentry by studying at night what we did that day at work. I could layout roofs, stairs etc. I had to learn because I was told to move out at age 18. Hard to live on minimum wage. I never took any class in high school to prepare me for college let alone engineering.

At 24 the economy went to crap so I went to college for civil engineering. Several people said I might not be able to pass because of my lack of college prep work and just basic “profiling”. There is a Jethro Bodine profile I fall into. The first semester I took Physics. The first Physics lab was a simple computer exercise. Go the computer lab and log in with some really long userid and really long password. The lab was a simple canned program you input 3 or 4 values in, got an answer, printed it out. This was the punch card days.

I literally could not get past the UserID and password. When you get up to go get some assistance, you lose your computer. So you wait until there is another available one. The computer lab monitors treated me like an idiot and were no help. After 4 hours of trying, I got frustrated and went home to pack and leave college. A big 2 days in college and I have decided I just CAN’T do this. Everyone was right, I do not have what it takes, so I am quitting. This would fit the “profile”.

Packing the next morning to leave, I thought to myself, I have NEVER given up this easy in my life. I have never told myself I can’t do something so easily. I decided that to leave without knowing why I failed was not acceptable. I at least needed to know why I failed so quickly so I would know what to “work on”. So I went back and found out the lab instructor gave the wrong userid and password. Everyone in the class had the same problem I had but they were a little more computer savvy than me and realized the problem. I also found out the computer lab people hated this particular physics lab because they actually made a handout with the userId and password for the grad student lab teachers to hand out. All the teacher had to do was make copies to hand out. Most of the lab teachers would not, they would try to call it out from memory, which I know my lab teacher did. For that reason, the computer staff would not help ANY of us.

So I decided to stay and had the usual college problems after that but I never again told myself I Can’t do something. Years later I saw the Henry Ford quote for the first time and my mind raced back the first Physics lab and how quickly I fell prey to that extremely treacherous word. So use that word sparingly.

 

[Sparweb]

Instead of getting hung up on women in engineering let's get hung up on those who can't do it, whether male or female.

That hits the mark. As I start to do more supervision, I see the differences in people. Have to figure out how to deal with each. I need different approaches with people driven to solve problems and people driven to do what they're told. This is far more important a difference than gender.

Something else you said:

Being direct is something I think more people need. Otherwise, constructive criticism can be couched in such touchy-feely (indirect) language the point is not apparent to those intended. Being direct with people doesn't mean it's done disrespectfully, maliciously, etc. I think that's where some get confused and make it very personal, in a very negative way.

Instinctively I agree, but there are a billion people in the world who don't, and they outnumber us. So as the world gets smaller with communications technology, we're just going to have to soften the direct approach at times.
Try to see it from the other person's side if they come from a society that does not encourage blunt opinions. They go for tact instead. Folks like that will have a fairly sensitive radar for both praise and criticism. You won't need to tell them their analysis is wrong because expressing some "concern" will still raise a red flag. Any more will just turn the volume up to 11.
I still deplore this as a disadvantage to their learning and skill, but I can't change it.

Early in my career, I had a mentor who definitely used the direct approach. Like your family, he didn't have time to sugar-coat it. I picked up a lot of habits from him, including that. Later it started to sink in that not everyone has the confidence and thick skin that I do. I can take it, but I shouldn't always dish it out. Especially with interns and junior engineers, I find I don't have to push too hard on the controls to steer.

I guess I'm responding to this point because I currently have two interns to work with, and they couldn't be more different. Similar age and schooling, and hired about the same time. To coin a phrase; one needs a leash, the other needs a whip. The direct approach works really well on the first, but has the opposite effect on the second. Some day, I'll get to hire my own people, rather than make do with the people that other people hire. Then I can select for the types that can take the direct approach.

Ron,
I can relate to that story, too. I spent a year wondering what I was going to do with my life after I flunked out of university. Eventually the message got through from everyone in my family saying to me "yes you can".

No one believes the theory except the one who developed it. Everyone believes the experiment except the one who ran it.
STF

 

[IRstuff]

Therein lies a difference; men tended to have people telling them they can, while women have had the opposite.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[Ron247]

Therein lies a difference; men tended to have people telling them they can, while women have had the opposite.

Very good point IRstuff. Amazing how a slight change in "general advice" could change people's trajectory for the positive.

 

[IRstuff]

The sad part is that it doesn't even have to be that overt; it's been stated that teachers have had a tendency to call on boys to answer math and science questions more often than girls; so even that slight rebuff can build into a perception that girls just aren't supposed to be answering such questions.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
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[Ron247]

IRstuff, you statement is exactly my point. Someone may be doing this trying to keep someone's feelings from getting hurt by "publicly getting the answer wrong" but these instances that lower your expectation of yourself by .01% matter when they occur 10,000 times. Especially when you have your hand up to answer the question but it seems you never get called on.

To me, for a teacher or parent to say "Engineering will be tough but I am sure you have what it takes to succeed" is far better than "Engineering is tough so don't be ashamed if you do not succeed".