Women in the workplace... 21

[kmtswims]

I am the only female engineer in my company. The company itself has approximately 16 employees and 3 owners, we have a female secretary and one of the owner's wife works part time as the Office manager. I have been an employee for 2.5 years and this is my first job out of college.

I have noticed a lot of sexism in my workplace, mostly in the form of inappropriate comments (although they are not usually aimed at me, just stated out loud) and being left out in both business and personal. I totally understand that people are not always invited to things and that is people's choices but to be left out of business meetings and such is appalling. I am also chastised about almost everything constantly and of course no one backs me up for anything because the "boys always stick together". I am wondering if this is happening to other women out there in the engineering field.

 

[JAE]

I joined my current firm about 15 years ago and managed the structural engineering dept. I had a female engineer working under me and I never would have allowed those sorts of comments to stand without at least quietly going to the "guilty" party and suggesting that they cease and desist.

The engineer working for me did have occasional frustrations - but mostly with the female clerical staff who would invite her to luncheons with the girls. She was pretty adamant that she be included as an engineer with the engineers and not be considered just one of the gals. I was too, but this was more a cultural thing with the clerical staff vs. harrassment. There were a few other instances where inappropriate behavior occurred and I did my best to deal with it promptly.

I would urge you first to notify your supervisor about this, even if he is one of the culprits, and suggest that the comments could be construed as a form of harassment, but that for the current case, you would simply appreciate some management of this issue on his part to knock this sort of thing down. If no action is taken, then you either leave or take a next step and warn them in written form that you consider the environment to be in violation of harrassment laws...(am I spelling harrassment right?).

Anything you do may get you into disfavor with the firm, but if you do, you probably don't want to work with that firm anyway.

I would then suggest that you be open to other job opportunities as there ARE places of employment in engineering where this doesn't happen. Being a small firm, there is probably a loose attitude about workplace harassment laws but they are subject to the same liability as a large firm.

 

[Desdichado]

Well as a guy with a few women engineer friends, I can say that it does happen alot. Probably not to the extent it seems to be happening to you though. Being left out of business meetings and being chastised, is very unusual though.

I would recommend looking for a new position. There is no excuse for that treatment. You have the benefit of having no reason to feel loyal to your company.

If you do decide to find a new job, I wouldnt recommend stating these issues as the reason you left your last position. I know its wrong, but I imagine it may scare potential employers off by being afraid of a harrassment suit.

Good Luck!

 

[HgTX]

Check out some of the discussions on the mentornet.net e-forum. (As I've said elsewhere, there's some BS on that site, but some good discussion as well.)

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[UcfSE]

It sounds like you are at one of those "good ol' boy" firms. If you feel the comments are inappropriate, I would definitely follow JAE's advice about notifying your supervisor and make sure you do so in writing. Though my wife is not an engineer, she had someone at her company making very inappropriate comments. This person was fired, but my wife also got a lecture because she did not go to her boss the first time it happened. She tried to just handle it herself (before I have to take a walk down there myself and have a talk with someone ). Make sure you let someone know and keep documentation of what goes on.

With being left out of meetings, I've been at my firm for almost 4 years now and I still don't get invited to meetings concerning the company, whether it's projects, progress or what. Sometimes it isn't because you're a woman, some places just have jerks.

I would start looking for another firm. Even if you get the comments and such taken care of, you may well miss out on a lot of experience and knowledge that you would get elsewhere.

 

[EddyC]

If things at your job have become intolerable, I recommend that you move on. But I also recommend that you do it quietly. You've only been out of school for only a few years and are in the process of ramping up your career. You don't want to risk a "black eye" just to prove who's right. You will also find that there will always be the "Dice Clay" style of man out there in every company. Usually they are kept in check, however.

Also, I personally prefer to work in firms that have balanced male/female ratios. I think that many others feel the same way. Try to find a firm that has such a balance.

 

[TheBlacksmith]

It is not tolerated at my company. If a supervisor knows about it and does nothing, they are punished as severely as the harrasser. Personally I am far too busy discriminating against stupid people to care about their gender. If you can do the job or are willing to learn, lets go; if not get out of the way. I will admit to going out of my way to request some of the sharper female engineers when I'm going up against a supplier or customer that I think is biased just to tip the balance in my favor.

 

[BJC]

Keep a dairy, names, events and what happened. You may never need it but if things go bad it's good to have it. The next woman that works there may have the same or a worse problem. Your help may be needed.

 

[zdas04]

Hold it right there. Read your post again.

I have noticed a lot of sexism in my workplace, mostly in the form of inappropriate comments (although they are not usually aimed at me, just stated out loud) and being left out in both business and personal. I totally understand that people are not always invited to things and that is people's choices but to be left out of business meetings and such is appalling. I am also chastised about almost everything constantly and of course no one backs me up for anything because the "boys always stick together". I am wondering if this is happening to other women out there in the engineering field.

You absolutely can't have it both ways. If the language of casual conversation is offensive to you then avoid the casual conversations. If being excluded bothers you then participate with the other engineers as "one of the guys". Carrie Nation tried to change the world and oh what a horrible price she paid for it. You won't change the way people act regardless of how badly you want it to change so you either have to toughen up to rough talk or stay away from it (which means that you will always be elsewhere when the real decisions are made in the halls and bull sessions). It is a shame, but that doesn't make it any less real.

The "of course no one backs me up ..." comment really looks like someone who is looking for someone else to blame for real or imagined defeciencies in your performance. You either need to play the game by the established rules (even if all of the rules are not clear to you) or learn to enjoy yourself as an outsider.

David

 

[KENAT]

ZDAS04

Depending where kmtswims is from then there's a good chance that at least legally she can have it both ways.

Plus even ignoring the sexual harrassment/discrimination aspects for a moment then some of the behaviour sounds at least a bit rude, but maybe I'm just too English and mannerly. If you wouldn't say it in front of your mum/wife/adult daughter then you probably shouldn't say it in front of a female colleague, or does that count as sexist?

 

[MikeHalloran]

You clearly haven't heard my adult daughter when she's mad. You would remember it, clearly. ;-)



Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[TheRaptor]

The general conclusion in this forum seems to be that kmtswims brings the issue of harrasment to the notice of her supervisor and also starts looking for another job.

Although I definitely agree with the former suggestion, the latter 1 seems impractical. What guarantee does she have that these issues wont get repeated in the new job? Sexist comments and harrasment have been around for ages and they still exist. There is a young female engineer in my team (team size 25), and there seems to be no friction between her and the others.

However, I definitely agree with EddyC. It's better to work for a company with an (almost) equal ratio of men and women. Atleast the chance of any girl being singled out for harrasment is remote.

 

[Parsnip]

I have worked as a chartered engineer for about 10 years and in every company I have been the lone or one of two female engineers. In my first company people used to ring up for my boss, I would answer the phone and they would assume I was a secretary (when they found out I wasn't they had the decency to be embarressed about it!).
Of course there are always comments made that you may find sexist or offensive - the knack is to work out if they are being delvered that way - is it intentional or are you just feeling sensitive. Most of the time if a bloke says a comment that is totally inappropriate they can tell by my reaction how I feel and normally apologise. However I also feel that being a woman engineer is my choice - I entered a male dominated business (aerospace) and I should not make a point of it.
With regards to not being included - I really hate to say it but people (men and women) sometimes just don't think - they get set in their ways and don't realise what they are doing.
I hope all this doesn't sound to rambling, just think about why you are doing what you do, if you enjoy it then you sometimes have to learn to live with it.
However, if comments and or actions get personal or abusive you must report it, this goes for men as well as women. If your company has a decent employment set up that sort of action will not be tolerated, and indeed it must not.
Sorry if this was a bit long winded.
Good luck
Parsnip
:->

 

[kmtswims]

Thanks everyone for your replys.

Some things that jump out to me. Those of you who say to avoid it, that is impossible since comments and such are made while I am sitting at my desk working, I can't just not be there.

As for the idea of trying to fit in with the guys, I am not sure how fair I think that is. Am I supposed to change who I am so that I can "fit in." Would we ask a male nurse who is in a female dominated field to try to be "one of the girls"? I feel like its women who are always supposed to change because we are viewed as too sensitive but I don't think that is fair. It is not wrong to be annoyed or hurt by comments that are deragatory to you.

I would love to find a new job but that just isn't an option at this point since my husband and I want to move out of state in the next year. So eventually I will be getting a new job. I was just wondering if this is happening at other engineering firms.

I do know to write everything down, I was sexually harrassed one time in the office and I logged an official complaint. Luckily that person is no longer here.

 

[GregLocock]

"Am I supposed to change who I am so that I can "fit in." " Frankly, yes that is an option. As you grow up, you'll learn how to fit in whilst preserving your own integrity. That is a tough thing to learn, but it'll happen. It may be that you choose to define yourself by not fitting in. That will have consequences as well. Either way, it is YOUR choice.

" I was just wondering if this is happening at other engineering firms."

Sure. It happens the world over. Powerful, confident people will always seek to dominate less powerful, less confident people. It isn't sex,as such, it is primates.





Cheers

Greg Locock

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[epoisses]

Just a couple of thoughts from a politically incorrect country.
Men usually like female company. Men don't like it when they're only men around at work. Women add something special.
If men tease women, it's usually a sign that they like them. If a man does not like a woman, he will typically ignore her. Men will sometimes go too far in this as in any game.
The longer men work together, the more intimate they get and the more informal the communication among them. Part of male informal communiation is slang, bad jokes, inappropriate comments, etc. I guess that's the way we are. If you had any brothers this situation would probably more familiar.
You either like it and become friends, or you don't and you don't become friends and don't share life outside work. You can't have it both ways as zdas04 wrote. What you can _legally_ have both ways looks beautiful on paper, but useless in practise, at least useless if you think it could improve your working environment.

Sexual harassment is obviously inacceptable, but sexism... come on, are you trying to make me believe that men are women are the SAME??

 

[kmtswims]

Epoisses

I wasn't trying to say that men and women are the SAME but I do believe they are EQUAL. I just feel its inappropriate to make comments such as "I know you are a girl, but try reading....". I am not looking to be friends with the people I work with I just am tired of being put down and chastised constantly.

I do have brothers and they did tease me relentlisly (sp?) but I don't think that guys you work with have that right. I also understand there is male communication versus female communication, what I have a problem with is pure sexist remarks.

 

[ziggi]

I'm a young male engineer, but one of my best friends and consequently a co-worker is a female tech sales rep. We've worked together for a while in a primarily 'old boys' company, there's been a few times when one of our suppliers/clients have said something inappropriate to her, MY first instinct is to react aggresively (as any friend would). She takes a different tack.

She usually takes the comment and twists it around to poke fun at the person making it, usually leading to a laugh or snort from us guys, and embarrassing the person making the comment, revenge is sweet sweet sweet. She takes the same tack with nearly all 'good ol boys' and as such is well respected.

Men as simple creatures, we usually only respond to negative stimuli: violence, embarrassment etc.
I think the point is that if you're seen a being meek, the badgering will continue, fight back and give it to em worse and eventually they'll learn their lesson.

As for the meetings and chastising, you're new and young and maybe they expect more of you because of that, I get the same treatment.

As for the sexual harassment, that's entirely unacceptable, good job going to someone about it.
An alternative track would be to do what my wife does, a dose of insult to the harrasser (preferably belittling his sexual prowess), followed by violence if he gets aggressive....my wife is a self-defense instructor....usually people don't bother her too much (I also think she throws in the insults so that the person does get aggressive, thus giving her a reason to beat the stuffing out of him ).

 

[epoisses]

hi kmtswims,

You wrote "I do have brothers and they did tease me relentlisly (sp?) but I don't think that guys you work with have that right." -- well, apparently they think they do, and if they behave like brothers, would that be such a bad thing? I dunno, I am just wondering.

Remarks like "I know you are a girl, but try reading...." are really not meant to be an offense (as far as I know my fellow male homo sapiens). They are simply meant to be funny. They are pretty stale, though, especially if you hear it every day, and if I were you I would ask them to come up with something a bit more funny and less boring. They actually might if you challenge them.

Other than that, I can't give you much advice, kmtswims, if they are too hopeless and annoying then just move on.

 

[kchayfie]

One way of dealing with sexism is to turn it right back on them and use it to your advantage. For example, if you are visiting a site 3 hours drive away, he'll have to drive all the way there and all the way back because everyone knows women are rubbish drivers. And obviously there's no point in you navigating because women can't read maps so how about you just have a nice long nap in the back of the car.

If you smile sweetly with a twinkle in your eyes, they should get that you're making fun of them. If they think you're serious, its definitely time to pack up and move on to that other job...