Women in the workplace... 21

[kmtswims]

I am the only female engineer in my company. The company itself has approximately 16 employees and 3 owners, we have a female secretary and one of the owner's wife works part time as the Office manager. I have been an employee for 2.5 years and this is my first job out of college.

I have noticed a lot of sexism in my workplace, mostly in the form of inappropriate comments (although they are not usually aimed at me, just stated out loud) and being left out in both business and personal. I totally understand that people are not always invited to things and that is people's choices but to be left out of business meetings and such is appalling. I am also chastised about almost everything constantly and of course no one backs me up for anything because the "boys always stick together". I am wondering if this is happening to other women out there in the engineering field.

 

[kontiki99]

I don't know what the laws say, but I don't think comments that aren’t directed at you in a hostile way can be considered harassment.

I don't believe just hearing certain words or topics discussed by others is harassment.

Words don't have magic powers. They are just sounds.

Of course there are a lot of people in this world that have been trained by their parents and society to experience discomfort when they hear certain words.

It’s amazing because if the same sound came from a squeaking door hinge, and the person knows that, the sound is a don’t care.

If the same sounds are spoken by someone it becomes more about what that person might be thinking and subject to control and punitive action.

I believe the confusion has to do with how the human works. I have read about studies where scientists somehow mapped the brain activity of a person that’s doing something that they know is a mistake. Apparently, a person watching a person make the same mistake stimulates the same areas of the brain.

It may be this vicarious assimilation of emotion caused by observing others that really is behind so much of the confusion.

If you have been trained from a very young age to believe that certain words are only used to insult women. And you hear these words, but they weren’t directed at you, you may feel insulted, attacked and hurt.

The reality is, your conditioning may have caused you to emotionally hurt yourself. The words are actually harmless.

These idiosyncrasies lead to all sorts of bizarre contradictions in our society. The President, Vice president and members of congress have all be caught using what’s sometimes considered profane language. Yet it is the FCC’s job to ensure that radio announcers don’t use the same language on the air that’s routinely used to conduct in our nations capital.

It’s the same thing with hate laws. If you kill someone it illegal. If you kill someone because you felt members of their race should be killed, it’s worse.

The problem with all of this is that it distills down to legal control over what people are thinking. Or what others assume you are thinking.

I usually try to fit in with the culture of the organization I find myself in and keep my thoughts to myself. I believe so much of the puritan enforcement of other people beliefs on people is just so much BS.

As we all know, if they focus on you and have the legal power to burn you at the stake. Your toast. Just survive kids.

 

[KENAT]

kontiki99, Depending on where you are the general environment, such as comments made in your presence though not at you, can be considered harassment.

Fact is many fields of engineering are male dominated and have been for a long time. Also in many fields of engineering the people involved don't tend to be very PC.

Combine these two and you'll find that yes there is a lot of what could be considered sex discrimination and/or harassment in certain areas of engineering.

 

[kontiki99]

Kenat,

I am very aware of the general hostilities to women in aviation. Particularly women that don’t have much experience.

I have watched people just refuse to explain something to a young woman then turn around and take a young guy under their wing to give them the full explanation.

When I’m in charge or moderating and I see that, I stop it. We need everyone trained and everyone’s ideas.

That doesn’t mean we have to cater to the “princess on deck” thing.

Many of these issues revolve around sex.

It’s pushed at you on TV, magazine advertising, the movies etc. So why should two guys discussing a fashion spectacle they just saw walking down a public street be criticized for creating a hostile environment.

I really think that the only thing anyone should be talking about at work are subjects related to the business. If it doesn’t enhance profit it probably doesn’t belong.

Very few men or women like that standard.

If we’re not going to stick exclusively to the bottom line for subject matter, it going to take maturity and tolerance we seem capable of in our living rooms.

 

[Shreen]

kmtswims,

I am sorry to hear of your troubles at your workplace, good luck in finding a solution.

I think it is difficult to tell if these coworkers are purposely being rude towards you without being in the thick of it.

I have encountered a lot of rude, aggresive and generally sexist comments whilst studying (I've just graduated) but never were these comments targeted at me. If they were, their aim was poor! I've happily socialised with male students young and old who have often gone on to make incredibly rude comments in my presence, although I strongly suspect they did not intend to offend me nor were referring to me.

Simply being a female in this industry you probably already have a gained more respect than the collective 'women' these men refer to in their jokes. I try not to take these things personally and as a result I've always been welcome as 'one of the gang' especially since 90% of the jokes we share are engineering related!

I certainly hope things mature a bit in the workplace, I'm getting pretty fed up of overhearing teenage boys moan about how we [female engineers] are all so ugly.

Let us know how you get on kmtswims.

 

[heieup]

It happens all over the place, and I am sure that men in a female dominated environment have the same problems but its just not seens as such a big issue for them.

In my experience most of the guys I work with at first just did not know how to deal with a woman at work in an engineering / production role. Bear in mind that other than the odd secretary and other support staff many may NEVER have worked with women in this role before. Its odd to them and often they just don't know how to behave. From this I have seen two distinct and separate responses, one is to treat you like you are their wife / mother / daughter. So they don't swear in front of you, are very carful, don't invite you out, don't involve you in their office 'games' (e.g. lottery, annual sweepstake, night out) because they don't know if you're interested and are too scared to ask. This may sound good because everything is above board and they're very well behaved but it is very alienating, you are very alone because you are not one of them and getting into the group is then very difficult.

The alternative is that they don't change behaviour at all, and treat you just the same way as they would any bloke joining in that position. You get the swearing, the slightly inappropriate comments , the practical jokes. Again, they just don't know what to do with you as you ARE different, whether you like it or not.

From experience of both, both are very difficult to deal with but face it you are different and many of the men you work with don't do it intentionally they just don't know how to deal with it.

My advice, give as good as you get... when the comment ' I know you're a girl but....' I have found that a ' my god, you noticed !' or a 'the boobs just give it away don't they' kind of comment makes them realise how stupid and daft the comment is, and will also make the other guys laugh. You're one of the gang but you don't have give up your femininity.

With regards to your bosses, its a trickier one. I would suggest one of two tacks. First work damned hard, face it you have to be better than your equivalent male colleague often to get noticed, anything average is seen as being not good enough. And if there are things you want to be involved in but aren't asked then ask ! Maybe they don't think you're interested, you wouldn't want to get your hands mucky, you wouldn't enjoy it.

Much as you like to think that there is equality nowadays, it doesn't yet exist. In my experience not because men aren't willing but because they often just don't know how to act around females in that position. Once they get used to it you'll usually have no problems, but stick up for yourself, rise above it and make the job what you want... you don't get if you don't ask.

If you really hate it, get another job. But I would avoid the harrassment aisle unless it is directed at you and is a major problem. Its a lot of hassle and while it shouldn't be it is a very enduring Black mark against your name.

Oh and for reference I think the male female balance where I work is 340:1 excluding clerical staff (170:1 if included) and the dept I work in now has NEVER had a woman work there before except the cleaner / secretary.

 

[0707]

Men and women are complements of each other. In the work place women show their sex appeal. Men try to be charm. At work, women are more practical and intuitive, men are more rational. Men see the forest, women see the tree. Women are sensible, men are fantasists. In work place Women don’t like to have as chief another women. At work place women are more spontaneous, men are more hypocrites.

God make men and women as perfect human beings, where men has saliencies, women has cavities, and vice versa. Men and women are peaces of the same puzzle.

 

[epoisses]

I think the difference between the averages of both groups (I mean the average level of charm, intuitivity, rationality, you name it) is smaller than the standard deviation of each group. So it makes very little sense to generalise since most people are exceptions.

Re sex and kontiki's comment that the only thing anyone should be talking about at work are subjects related to the business... ideally, yes, but I'm not sure if that is a realistic expectation. After all we are all dressed up homo sapiens, and being at work is just one of those group situations in which not only the neocortex is at work, but the underlying "animal" brain sections as well. So there is jealousy and competition, an informal hiercharchy besides the formal one, enmity, friendship and... pheromones. Like it or not, we have to somehow manage it.