Working with industrial designers 1

[KENAT]

Not sure this is the best forum but seems as good as any and a quick search didn't change my mind.

I had a phone call with an Industrial Designer earlier that we've used a few times previously who ranted about the way we have used their services.

Basically we'll give them the basic product information/envelope etc. and have them come up with some schemes for packaging it to be more aesthetically pleasing and in some cases meet certain ergonomics requirements etc. In one or two cases we've then actually had them do some of the detail design of the covers etc, in other cases we've used their concepts as a starting point and then fleshed the rest out our selves because with the time schedules we usually have we to go to them before everything is fleshed out so changes occur etc.

It seems this latter approach is highly offensive to him. It was like we were somehow undermining his artistic integrity or something. Apparently we should have gone back to him for every little change and paid him the tens of thousands of dollars it would cost without batting an eye lid. Now this guy has done the design of some high profile items which if I said the name you’d all recognize but still. He also started going on about how he was trained in this type of thing or something and how many industrial designers wouldn’t’ put up with it and wouldn’t allow their designs to be changed.

Our products are low volume, though fairly high price. However, 50-100k spread over say a couple of hundred units is still a sizeable chunk.

I can kind of understand that it may be frustrating coming up with something you think is really good then having it butchered by what you perceive as 'amateurs' but most of the 'butchery' is for a good reason driven by some design requirement or another. These products are scientific/industrial metrology instruments not consumer goods so while aesthetics are important they aren't the be all and end all, at least in my opinion.

So is this typical of how industrial designers work, or is our guy a prema donna? Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?

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[TheTick]

There are many IDs who feel this way but manage to keep it to themselves. Find one. There are many. Most are hungry right about now.

Your IDer needs to be reminded of the nature of the client-supplier relationship. You bought something, now it's yours. Your ID needs a firmer grip on that concept. He can always not take money for not doing things he would rather not see done.

IDs not hard to find. They usually introduce themselves by asking if you want fries with you sandwich.

 

[Compositepro]

It all a matter of contract. I can understand a top designer having this attitude. He has a reputation and that is why he has clients. If all his work is modified by others then what can he point to as his? Very few are in this category but all want to be.

 

[MikeHalloran]

I've had the pleasure of working with a few IDs.

One, a contractor, got paid for making a proposal to our requirements, and supplying a rendering. I don't think he even made the paper protoype, but he got paid, and I didn't hear anything negative from him.

Much later, I worked for a much better outfit that had two IDs on staff. I worked with each of them at different times. Both clearly understood their job, and mine, and we got on just fine.

Both of them stayed engaged with my projects, and helped evolve the product's skin while adjusting it because of technical constraints. That participation wouldn't be available to a contract ID, but it took relatively little time anyway. It shouldn't be an issue to a professional, and it clearly wasn't.

Both of them threw a huge fit when an idiot manager type unintentionally denigrated the woman's education and professionalism with an offhand remark, before a large audience, about her 'pretty pictures' or something like that. She was _really_ torqued, both about the insult and the absence of any sort of apology.


I submit that there exists the possibility of the ID having been upset by some idiot manager. There also exists the possibility that he is a prima donna. As has been pointed out, there is a generous supply of ID types available.





Mike Halloran
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA

 

[MintJulep]

The function of industrial designer is to package the technical requirements in a pretty and ergonomic way.

Not to impose constraints on the technical design.

You need to find a better industrial designer.

 

[ajack1]

Very few people like having their work changed, especially if they think the person changing it is less qualified than them, pride in your own work is after all what sets it apart from just earning money.

Having said all that, once you have paid for it what you choose to do with it is up to you. I could go out and buy the most expensive car in the world and angle grind the back seats out to put a pig in there if I wanted.

At the end of the day you are paying the money so you chose how much of the design is done by the ID and how much you choose to change, if they do not like it they can always stop taking your money.

 

[patprimmer]

There are a few under employed IDs who post here and might appreciate some opportunities.

Also I personally know a few here in Sydney who are first class and would respect the clients rights to do as they please with what they paid for.

My only qualifier would be that if you change someones design, you should also remove anything crediting them with the work, unless they expressly say they are still happy to have their name on it.

If credit for the work is part of the original contract, then you certainly need to consult about any changes





Regards
Pat
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[angusm]

As an ID'er I would agree with all of the posts so far. I hardly doubt it would cost a great deal to make the small design changes you are talking about. If it does, then you are probably paying over the odds.

There have been a few cases where I work of the client making changes to work generated by colleagues after data has been released. While this is slightly frustrating, there is nothing that can be done about it unless stated in a contract that may or may not have been drawn up. Just like ajak describes, IF no agreement has been made and the client pays for released CAD data then they can technically do whatever they want with it. BUT..What's the point of paying all that money when you then go ahead and bodge it around, the Industrial Designer I'm sure will not just be making a fuss about nothing. If the project wasn't behind schedule and everything was there with which the Industrial designer could work with then there wouldn't be a problem.


I am a bit confused by this comment Kenat:
"Are any industrial designers out there willing to just provide basic concepts for companies to then build on, or do you insist on controlling every little detail?"

Yes....but if they are basic why do you need to hunt down high profile designers to do them?

I would love to see before and after examples of the product in question but obviously this isn't going to be possible.

 

[TheTick]

My only qualifier would be that if you change someones design, you should also remove anything crediting them with the work, unless they expressly say they are still happy to have their name on it.

Pat has a good point. Often it's not the changes, but the attribution that matters.

I've been on this ride before. A colleague took over a project from me and proceeded to booger it up. Of course, he left my name on it so everyone was coming to me with the WTFs that were his doing. I'll take credit for my own mistakes, but...

 

[casseopeia]

As an architect, my sympathies are more in line with the industrial designer. I've had clients change their program far too late in the process, impose their own design ideas, insist that thet could do whatever they damn well please because they were paying for it, etc. I think more client's wives had control over paint colors than I ever did. I had one client take a plan and ex out all the columns that were in the way of his merchandizing plan insisting that they would have to go because he didn't need them. Instead of listening and respectfully considering the professional advice they were paying for, most clients effectively stamped their feet and sucked their thumbs when they didn't get their way, like the guy who thought his store layout trumped physics because he was writing the checks. There are designers who can work in this kind of environment but I'm not one of them.

Its very difficult not to be insulted under those conditions. It's even worse when you need the work. And the effects of bad clients are cummulative. So even if you have been professional in your dealings with your designer, he may be a little extra sensitive.

As long as you are confident that you have treated you designer with respect, then maybe it's time to consider a change.


I'm not saying this is necessarily what you are doing KENAT. Just bear in mind that this is most likely what his experience has been.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[KENAT]

As to the attribution thing, to the best of my knowledge we don't make any sales pitches or the like making a big deal out of the fact they were designed by this person/company. I only found out the name of them a couple of weeks ago. (Or then maybe that's part of the problem.)

On the changing the data thing, part of the issue is we really just want the basic concept or ideas to then flesh out based on function and as things develop. Essentially a few hand sketches of ideas and some explanation from an ID point of view of specific features etc. We explicitly aren't asking for full blown 3D CAD models. He essentially refuses to just supply basic concepts for us to develop and is virtually demanding to do all the design.

The unit I'm working on has a very tight budget so it's really being driven by manufacturing capability and we're trying to squeeze the best aesthetics out of it. We've already come up with a basic concept based on function and manufacturing and really all we want is him to give us some guidelines on a few design details. Marketing wants to give him a bit more freedom,but that translates to more cost & time which I don't think we have, and even they only want some 2D images to compare.

I'll be honest, based on my phone call yesterday and the email I just got from him (where he decided to put a rant on a workstation he'd put in a proposal for, we'd decided not to go with it in part because it looked crap from what I recal) I'd like to drop him, but I doubt some others will agree. Plus with all this back and forth we've lost over a week of what was meant to take only a couple of weeks in the schedule and things are getting tight.

I don't have too much trouble believing that previous folks here that have worked with him may have upset him, they've sure up set me. Still if he doesn't want to work with us I wish he'd just say it.

At the end of the day things are tight where I'm at, pay has been cut, mandatory vacation (without pay if you don't have it on the books) massive lay-offs (something like 40% since I started there) and various other things that don't improve moral. Then I've got this guy bidding at nearly $200 an hour and throwing his toys over us not wanting to pay him a 10's of thousands of $ to give us solid gold when we'd be happy with a lump of lead. Doesn't sit well wit me.

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[casseopeia]

If what you are offering this guy is not his gig, then he needs to learn how to bow out gracefully. He needs to say call me when you have a firm concept and a better budget for your product. Hey, if he doesn’t want to provide rough sketches for $200/hr, I’ll do it for $125. I can whip out a free hand sketch pretty quickly.

"If you are going to walk on thin ice, you might as well dance!"

 

[mauricestoker]

My oldest son is an ID. He had an attitude. His firm had an attitude. His firm lost business. His attitude has changed. He can now say "yum" when his customer says something that leaves a bad taste in his mouth. His firm is closing all but two locations and he will be moving to stay on payroll. Hard times seem to improve customer service.

 

[KENAT]

Cass, that's kind of where I thought we were at the 90% point of our phone call yesterday (well, nothing very graceful but at least declining to bid) then right at the end he said to send him some more info and he'd consider what he could do for our budget.

Having seen a couple of your simple sketches Cass I'd be happy to consider it but while I'll probably get the blame if it all goes wrong I don't have much say.

I think initially we weren't going to get external ID, we were going to do it ourselves based on what we'd learned from the last few go-rounds. I guess the VP brought it up at the last design review and now it's getting out of hand.

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[TheTick]

I had the good fortune to work for some great IDs. I worked in-house at a heavily ID-driven consumer electronics firm, then worked for a small ID firm.

A healthy ID-engineering relation takes constant care. Still, it can be healthy and rewarding and even constructive. Engineers should be used to being misunderstood and stereotyped. Don't pass that along by doing the same to your IDs.

Typical ID-engineer relationships seem based on resentment over the respect that both parties believe they are not going to get. Engineers need to get a grip on the fact that engineers make devices, but companies sell products. IDs (and many engineers) need to learn to let go of their work and allow the person paying for the work to take ownership.

 

[plasgears]

Bring the function in-house so that industrial design becomes part of the team. It will rub off on other team members so that they will design more in line with elegant form.

Consultants sometimes can be thorn in the side of company designers. It can border on downright insulting.

 

[patprimmer]

A bit expensive if you only require less than 500 hours design work a year.

Regards
Pat
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[TheTick]

The owner of the ID firm I worked for was very good about respecting customers' needs. Some customers wanted rough concept work, some wanted near-complete product design.

 

[patprimmer]

Some people just need to do something to feel involved or mark territory or take ownership for various reasons mostly based on emotion.

I once had a boss that whenever you wrote a letter, he would make small changes to wording or grammar or layout.

If you made the changes and took the next draft to him a week or two later, he made new changes, sometimes reinstating some or even all of your original work.

He was not a bad guy and he did not realise that was what he was doing. I think it helped him feel involved and to reinforce he was in charge. I think this was to reinforce to himself more than to anyone else.

Regards
Pat
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[KENAT]

Plasgears, that's kind of what we'd attempted to do, not by hiring a dedicated ID but by paying more attention to aesthetics, ergonomics etc. as we went.

I really think the scheme we have is pretty good, however the VP asked if it had been ID'd at the last design review and when the answer given was no then the VP said to do it.

The other engineerng staff involved & I just really want some input on size and location of a few aspects (such as logo's, accent color stripes etc.) from someone with a more artistic bent than us. The Marketing lead wants to give them a bit more freedom but still only wants 2D concepts, at least at this stage.

Oh well, I'll see what my colleagues have to say today.

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