Would you recommend engineering to a recent high school graduate? 31

[EngineerDave]

I have had this discussion with other engineering colleagues of mine. Assuming a student was talented and did well in math in the sciences, would you recommend that they go into engineering, or something else like law or medicine?

The reason for our cynicism is in part due to the lack of jobs and the decrease in manufacturing in the US.

What I would recommend, to say my nephew who is a few years away from graduating high school is that engineering is a great undergraduate major, but for grad school perhaps a law degree or a medical degree may ultimately be more effective.

All in all I don't regret going into engineering, but I do worry about it's future in the US.

 

[rhodie]

With the "baby boomers" aging, medicine would not be a bad field to enter. (Insert a "Plenty of work!" joke here.) However, MD's may soon face the same problems as engineers -i.e.- falling salaries - due to the simple fact that the gov't won't be able to subsidize the industry through medicare/caid (lack of corporate taxes because it's made in China) and people won't be able to afford to pay as much because overall wages will be lower... All this as a direct result of globalization.

Law is an interesting field, but it takes a special type of person to want to read and write "legalese" for 50 hrs/wk. I don't forsee foreign competition as a threat to our legal system when we barely manage to understand it ourselves!

The spiral decends beyond only we engineers... but at least we are thinking about the problem!

 

[TheTick]

As a navy vet, I often get asked by parents, "should my son/daughter go into the armed services". My answer to the prospective engineering students would be the same as I give to the prospective servicemen:

It's what you make of it. For servicemen: if you want to waste a couple years of living hell and get paid, you'll get just that. If you want to take advantage of many opportunities for training and self-improvement and have the time of your life doing it, you'll find it.

The decrease in U.S. manufacturing is going to put greater demand on engineers in the long run. If a person likes engineering and is committed to the profession, there will always be a good place. If all one is looking for is steady employment regardless of personal satisfaction, then PUH-LEEZ, don't come into engineering.

A few hiccups in the economy affect everyone. I'd really feel for all those communications majors out there working retail, if I actually had feelings.

Whatever the major, have your nephew wake up to the fact of the global economy and study foreign language AND culture.

I may make you feel, but I can't make you think.

 

[GregLocock]

Simple answer: no.

Engineering is too hard to do well if you aren't really interested. If you are interested you wouldn't want to do anything else, so the question would be moot.

I'd also say it that it sounds as if it is a high risk strategy employment-wise, if you want to stay in the USA, although it does have the up-side that the skills transfer readily into other areas.




Cheers

Greg Locock

 

[sc]

Based on another thread, I'ld suggest plumbing.

From my own experience if the person is unsure of what they want, then don't rush in. Take a break from schooling and look at the options. Returning to study may be a bit harder latter on but its better than doing something you don't like.

regards
sc

 

[StressGuy]

Along this line, a buddy of mine and I were recently discussing what would we do if (and possibly when, with the way things are going) if we couldn't work as engineers anymore.

Things we'd enjoy? flying, computers? those professions are in even worse shape than ours.

Truth be told, it's hard to look at just about any other work with any kind of optimism. Certainly, as we continue to lose the high paying jobs in engineering, computers, manufacturing, etc. that support our tax base and economy, things like medicine, law, and university will ultimately have to decline as people will no longer will be able to even try to afford the rates currently paid for these services.

My friend and I agreed that we aren't going to be encouraging our two year old daughters to go in to engineering. But, at this point we're not sure where to direct them to give them a chance at a better life than we have now.

Edward L. Klein
Pipe Stress Engineer
Houston, Texas

All opinions expressed here are my own and not my company's.

 

[pmureiko]

Match the child's interest with the field. There is no point being miserable for 30 to 40 years.

With that a career as a pharmacist seems promising. It is a respected profession and the starting pay is higher than what experienced engineers make.

Note the taxpayer subsidizes what the elected government chooses. Change the government and it will change the priority of medical care.

 

[rhodie]

pmureiko is correct. I attended a university that exists largely because of the pharmacy college on campus.

My friends in pharmacy got offers of 80k - 120k a year, (first year!) plus many rec'd a signing bonus, relocation expenses, or even a new car. It's unbelievable. They got treated like pro athletes by companies like Target and Wal-Mart desparate for people to staff in-store pharmacies.

Pharm school is tough, and shouldn't be attempted unless the idea of being a pharmacist is something that thrills you. It's kind of like working in a fast food joint: you work there a while and soon you can't stand the sight and smell of food. Don't be a pharmacist (or engineer) unless you think you'd still like the career even after you've been burned out on it during college.

 

[josephv]

There is an excellent article from Progressive Engineer, here are a few quotes:

"World population continues to mushroom, environmental problems become ever more complex, energy becomes scarcer, and demands for technology increase. Society needs more engineers than ever before. Yet because of the poor public relations and journalism work done on behalf of engineers, many school children still don't understand what engineers do, and people aren't encouraged to enter the profession."

"Survey after survey shows that much of the public -- including impressionable students making career choices -- doesn't understand what engineering is all about, and this may lead to serious shortages of engineers in the future workforce."

http://www.progressiveengineer.com/frm_what.htm

 

[Binary]

I absolutely would not recommend this as a career choice - depending on what else was being considered, anyway.

By "this" I mean my experience in engineering which has been in defense R&D, OEM equipment design, and volume manufacturing engineering. I routinely regret the investment of so many years of my life to have this be my career.

At one time I considered aviation, medicine, and air-traffic control - all of which would have been much better choices (I'd be far enough up in the pilot's union by now to be OK).

rhodie's and pmureiko's post makes me smile because I've begun the application process to get into pharmacy school at the age of 40. Haven't decided for sure to go through with the app (also considering MSME or MSCE or nursing).

I like the work and think the education is great but just hate the instability and am scared to death of being an engineer looking for work at 45, 50, 60, ... because I know I'm almost certain to be out of work again and suspect it'll be next to impossible to find a new job.

I just replaced a 62-yr-old ME who died of a heart attack making $47k/yr with no benefits. Before he died, the boss here told me "He can't leave; nobody else would hire him." Gee, I'm sure excited about working here...

Looking at StressGuy's post at the bottom of rhodie's "Free Trade" thread just adds exclamation points.

Bottom line, better off to go into a service profession!! If you must be an engineer, at least be one where success requires a license and being "on site".

 

[RDK]

Provided that the student was capable, interested and willing to undertake the study necessary to become an engineer I would recommend the profession to anyone. I would never push it on someone who was not interested, not capable or unwilling.

The profession has been good to me and I hope it will be good to my son who is starting third year in the fall. He picked the profession on his own. I told him about the profession, he had opportunities to see it close up and we discussed at length the pros and cons of the different disciplines.

I do not believe that there is one personality type attracted to engineering. The nerd with black rim glasses with tape on them and a slide rule (in my day) or HP-48SX nowadays hanging off his belt is simply a stereotype why does not truly reflect the personality of an engineer. I’ve known all extremes of personalities from extreme extroverts to extreme introverts. The only characteristic that I believe that we all share is the belief that there is one best answer to every problem and that this can be found logically.

The profession is so vast in scope and tasks that anyone with the capabilities can find something to do that will be interesting, rewarding and exciting for them.

Current economic conditions aside there will always be a demand for engineers. The money may not be as good as in some professions but it is still usually sufficient for an upper middle class lifestyle.

When I was in high school an engineer came to talk to us on career day and I’ll never forget his advice and have passed it on to others. “Having an engineering degree means that you will always be able to find a job. It might not pay much, it might not be what or where you want to be but you will always be able to get a job.” Now 30 years later, I have found this to be true and the only engineers that I have ever meet who were unemployed for any length of time were those who either were too picky about the jobs available or had some serious problem (usually personality related).

One piece of advise that I do give to high school students, unsure of what they want to do, if they are mathematically inclined is to take a general set of courses in first year university math, physics, chemistry etc that will be considered equal to those offered in engineering, computer science, general science etc. That way they get anther year to think about it and will not lose a complete year that might not be applied to whichever course of study that they eventually decide.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[rhodie]

This thread is informative.

Current economic conditions aside there will always be a demand for engineers. The money may not be as good as in some professions but it is still usually sufficient for an upper middle class lifestyle.

I disagree with this statement. $5000/yr is the going rate for manufacturing-type engineers in India. Why pay me $50k a year, when 10 Indian engineers can be purchased for the same amount? The communications technology is there to allow for remote project management. It wouldn't be easy, but it could be done. There will always be a demand for engineers, sure. Will there always be a demand for my rather expensive engineering services? Probably not.

***

Bottom line, better off to go into a service profession!!

I disagree with this logic, too. (Sorry Binary) I've read that for every $1.00 manufacturing creates, $0.76 is created in the service sector. (somewhere on

http://www.tradealert.org)

Manufacturing is grass roots in the sense that it is the point at which comparatively valueless raw materials are converted into valueable products. Without this catalyst for creating cashflow, all other (serivce) economies will die. While manufacturing creates money, the service industry simply moves money around. "Trickle-up ecnomics" I guess is a good way to think of it.

There won't be a great demand for services like tanning parlors, cable TV, and cell phones should the economy tank. This is why the whole "service economy" idea is a lie. Look to history for an example: In the 1930's people patched up roofs with tin cans and retreaded tires. Money was nowhere to be found, and people got by with what they had.

I understand that services like pharmacies and mechanics will always be very necessary, but these jobs will feel the pain of stagnation as well. Expect to get paid less in these areas, too.

My idea is to open a speakeasy. Just look at the US's Great Depression, and you realize that booze was one of the few products that people couldn't live without. Therefore, I'll capitalize on people's inability to deal with reality!
(I'm kidding about this, of course.)

The future of the US is dark and cloudy. We've got problems now that we have never had to work through before. The economic mindset of "We always bounce back!" is one that I question increasingly. Is this pessimism unfounded?

I'd still call myself a pretty happy guy, nonetheless! College football season is coming!

 

[Binary]

Good points, rhodie.

I guess what I'm thinking WRT service professions like medicine, pharmacy, etc. is that even with the stagnation, their services will always be in demand and can't be provided from overseas (probably could actually but people wouldn't go for it, I think). Therefore, even if their wages fall it probably won't be as far as for the mfg types so comparative std of living will be better.

I guess the fundamental basis of economics that I've never understood is the requirement for continual growth. That just seems impossible. I don't know anything about economics so I'm hoping that it's just my ignorance that confuses me.

 

[rhodie]

I guess the fundamental basis of economics that I've never understood is the requirement for continual growth.

That makes two of us. It's more like the requirement for "growth that exceeds 3%" to boot!

 

[PSE]

Aptitude, Interest, Desire, Opportunity, Awareness. I have no plans to talk my child into following my footsteps if he does not show these traits. He will choose his own path and I plan to offer guidance if/as needed. Children should be given exposure to the engineering profession but ultimately the choice of entering it should be theirs.

Regards

 

[RDK]

There appears to be a few people in this discussion that would not pick engineering as a career or want out of it now.

You were never sentenced by anyone to be an engineer for life. If you are not happy being an engineer then leave the profession and get work in another field. You can go back to school and most universities will give some credit for past degrees towards a second degree. Other professions such as accounting (in Canada at least) do not require any degree and can be obtained through part time study while working.

Life is to short to spend it in a profession that you do not like. While it’s true that one works to live and not lives to work, a 40 hour work week is over a third of the time you are awake and it should be spent at something that you enjoy doing. Personally I like being an engineer and doing engineering things. If you have discovered that it’s not for you then change careers before being unhappy at work starts to hurt you in other areas of your life.

Your mental health will thank-you.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[havesealwilltravel]

Like most engineers, I enjoy engineering. There is great satisfaction in doing a good job completing a difficult project.

However, I am discouraging my kids from persuing a career in engineering. I am encouraging them to pursue a career where they can achieve EMOTIONAL and FINANCIAL satisfaction. As a profession, engineering is decaying and if the trend continues, engineering will soon be a job and not a profession. Many engineers refuse to see what's happening. Our social status is declining and our pay (relative to the cost of living) is dropping. I remember a time when firings didn't exist and layoffs were rare and temporary. I remember when an engineer's career ended with a company sponsored retirement party and a company provided pension. Now, you're just laid off because older employees increase health insurance costs. If you want to celebrate your retirement you can buy yourself a drink on the way home.

Most real professions promote the welfare of their members. They limit the number of people entering the profession and work to improve working conditions and professionalism. Engineering societies work to increase the number of engineers. They promote the attitude thatt engineers should work to improve their technical skills and productivity. They ignore the career and financial needs of the engineers.

The attitude "If you are not happy being an engineer then leave the profession and get work in another field." is a callous attitude towards your fellow engineers. This is the very attitude that is dragging down the profession. One of the trends which is sucking the engineering profession down is the "I've got mine and screw you" attitude of the owners and managers of engineering companies.

 

[RDK]

Dannym

Lets see, you want your children to go into a profession where they will be satisfied emotionally and financially but wish to keep your fellow engineers, who want out, in a profession where they cannot achieve emotional and financial satisfaction?

My statement was not meant to be callous. I once hired a junior engineer, right out of university, who decided before lunch on his first day that he did not want to be an engineer. He only went into engineering because of family pressures. He hated every minute of engineering school and was depressed at spending the rest of his life at something that he just couldn’t get excited about. I felt sorry for him and we had a long talk about it. He really wanted to be an accountant and left saying that that was what he was going to do.

Are you saying that he should have been kept in the profession for some reason?

Here in Manitoba, the professional association is quite cognizant of the financial aspects of the profession. They consider it part of their mandate to protect the public through the regulation of engineering, to include overseeing the profession and helping ensure that it can continue to attract and retain the type of people who will make the profession a better place.

In furtherance of this they are visiting the first year classes and providing them some numbers about the various disciplines and the projected demand and demographics in the profession. They sponsor having engineers visit high school classes to talk to seniors about engineering. They promote the profession in various other ways.

Also here in Manitoba the pharmacy profession is highly regulated by their society. They severely limit the number of people entering the school of pharmacy and thus tightly control the numbers of new pharmacists in the province. The result is that there is a serious shortage of pharmacists in the province. Starting salaries are around twice that of new engineers. Rural pharmacies are closing because there are not enough pharmacists to go around and the smaller pharmacies are unable to support them.

Who loses in this situation? Not the pharmacists, their salaries are growing. It’s the public, the very people who our ethics says we should put first. They cannot get adequate medical care because of the shortage.

Engineering, at least in Canada has chosen to allow as many people to enter the profession as the universities can train and as can become qualified. They then let market demands set salaries and in a capitalistic economy that is the way it should be.

Rhodie

If there is no demand for your rather expensive services then I see you as having three choices.

Firstly you could lower your price. You may not want to or may think that you are worth more but the market has spoken and your services are not worth what the market is willing to pay. Sorry, but that appears to be the hard truth.

Secondly you could change the services that you offer. If there were no demand for industrial, how hard would it be for you to become a mechanical? Aren’t the first couple of years common in both disciplines?

Thirdly you could change where you offer your services. If the demand is for engineers somewhere else then you may have to move.

I realize that none of these are easy or desirable choices. It’s a fact of life in the new economy that no career is set for life. I’ve been an engineer for 26 years and moved 5 times, held 7 jobs, been laid off 3 times and spend most of the last ten years away from home. (That is counting the 10 years on my own as one job. If I counted projects the total would be over 20 jobs.)

You can bemoan the fact that the old economy has gone but you still have to make a life in the new economy. If you cannot accept the new facts of life then the new economy will pass you by. If you can adapt then there are opportunities out there, you just have to go and find them.



Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[EnglishMuffin]

A while ago, I was having a casual conversation with a middle aged matron, and she was talking about the fact that her son was going to go to medical school. "He's not interested in engineering then", I said (or something like that). I remember her exact reply. "Engineers are a dime a dozen dear", she said. I suppose I should have replied that although engineers probably are a dime a dozen, good ones aren't. Instead, I don't think I said anything - just sadly sat and reflected on what she had said. I've been relecting on it ever since.

 

[havesealwilltravel]

RDK

I'm obviously NOT saying that someone who is unhappy with engineering as a profession should be pressured to stay. That would be VERY stupid. I'm NOT stupid!

You mentioned that pharmacy limits the number of people who can enter pharmacy schools and therefore become licensed, practicing pharmacists. You also mentioned that enrollment in engineering schools is not limited. As you state, pharmacists are much, much better paid.

I agree that what you state is true. And this is distressing to me. For years now, engineering has not attracted the "best and brightest". How is society best served by that? Locally, engineering schools, with the help of engineering societies, are recruiting engineers to mentor (tutor) engineering students to keep them from flunking out. Engineering schools have lowered their standards to keep the seats filled. Our engineering societies have done nothing to counteract this. This results in a flood of cheap but mediocre engineers. This is one of the reasons our industrial base is eroding. The engineering profession seems to be striving for cheap mediocrity.

The pharmacy profession selects the "cream of the crop". They have no problem attracting the "best and brightest". If someone is accepted by a pharmacy school and successfully completes the program, it's a good bet that they are intelligent and well educated.

Over the years, I have seen many engineers, who enjoyed their work; leave the profession because they got tired of the low pay, layoffs, job insecurity, etc. The best young engineer I've ever mentored got disgusted and bought a bar. He enjoyed engineering but hated layoffs. How is this best for society? How is this best for the profession?

Also, the "on the job" training of engineers has greatly suffered over the years. If I have a well paying position because, over the years, I acquired special knowledge or skills and I work in an insecure employment situation, I would have to be VERY STUPID to train anyone. As soon as a cheaper engineer is functional, the higher paid engineer is gone! In the current engineering climate cheap mediocrity is overtaking quality. How is society served by this?

I'm willing to bet that, in your hiring, you have passed over many more qualified engineers and opted for the cheaper individual.

You spout the philosophy of the "new economy". However, if you think about it, the "real" professionals (lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, etc.) have been protected from the difficulties of the "new economy". I wish engineers were smart enough to stick together and look out for themselves and promote the profession.

Personally, I have been an engineer for 30 years. I've only worked for a few companies. I've never been fired or laid off. I am paid well above the average for an engineer. This is because I've achieved special skills which are fortunately still in demand and can command a much higher than average pay. I will survive in your "new economy". I will also continue to tell my "I remember when" stories. In the past engineering was a better profession than it is now. Unfortunately, engineers were short sighted and let the profession slide. I can only hope that the engineering profession wakes up.