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Your grades in university and where you are now 6
- Thread starter eliou
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StructuralEIT- You make some really great points and for some career paths a low GPA can be a killer especailly in the structural engineering aspect of the civil engineering world.
But doing "field engineering" for a top ten ENR company ie Bechtel, Kiewit, Washington Group, Fluor, Parsons etc. (all great companies) GPA is not the end all be all of getting a good of great job but as I stated in my long winded rant above a low GPA does not mean you are doomed to toil for some low rent engineering outfit in the "sticks" for eternity. I know some guys that were low GPA guys that worked on some really cool projects all over the world.
On the matter of school size i have one engineering degree from a pac-10 school and the other engineering degree is from a small NAIA school in the frontier conference that no one has heard of. The only advantage to the Pac-10 alma mater is talking a little smack in interviews with people from other Pac-10 schools about the last football or basketball season. Although i do think the small school was much tougher than the Pac-10 school.
But doing "field engineering" for a top ten ENR company ie Bechtel, Kiewit, Washington Group, Fluor, Parsons etc. (all great companies) GPA is not the end all be all of getting a good of great job but as I stated in my long winded rant above a low GPA does not mean you are doomed to toil for some low rent engineering outfit in the "sticks" for eternity. I know some guys that were low GPA guys that worked on some really cool projects all over the world.
On the matter of school size i have one engineering degree from a pac-10 school and the other engineering degree is from a small NAIA school in the frontier conference that no one has heard of. The only advantage to the Pac-10 alma mater is talking a little smack in interviews with people from other Pac-10 schools about the last football or basketball season. Although i do think the small school was much tougher than the Pac-10 school.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
It is possible to be overqualified for those "less intellectually challenging" roles. A disorganised, skatty rocket scientist is unlikely to be organised and methodical enough to excel in jobs that require those traits.
Hiya,
When I finished my final year at the University of Westerna Australia I took all my engineering lecture notes and used them to heat up water in our wood-fired hot water system. I then started out from scratch.
What I needed to know about pumps and piping, air conditioning systems and mining processes I did not learn at University. I think the Professors like to think that they are teaching us to think. But from what I see passes for intellectual wisdom I am even having my doubts about that.
Step out in confidence, and don't be afraid to ask questions, and make mistakes. But don't pretend to be what you are not.
All the best - Sgt John.Rz
Johnp.Rz
When I finished my final year at the University of Westerna Australia I took all my engineering lecture notes and used them to heat up water in our wood-fired hot water system. I then started out from scratch.
What I needed to know about pumps and piping, air conditioning systems and mining processes I did not learn at University. I think the Professors like to think that they are teaching us to think. But from what I see passes for intellectual wisdom I am even having my doubts about that.
Step out in confidence, and don't be afraid to ask questions, and make mistakes. But don't pretend to be what you are not.
All the best - Sgt John.Rz
Johnp.Rz
I once had an interview for an internship where I was asked some technical big-picture questions. I knew the answers. Got the job and was able to work on some unbelievable projects for a 20 year-old.
My GPA was good but not outstanding. For recruitment for an engineering firm, I think that in general, those with higher GPA's will perform better. Even if they are just good at cramming and test taking, it shows that they have persistence and work well under pressure.
My GPA wasn't outstanding because I was lazy when it came to classes that were not in my area of interest. However, among my structural clases I had a 4.0.
The field engineer, or any kind of engineer, who is unable to get good grades in relevant classes is likely not as prepared as the engineer who got good grades. Obviously experience can make up for the grades, but we're talking from a recruiter's perspective who is looking at applicants just out of school.
If a student really understands the material, he/she should be able to make the grade. If they cannot, then there is obviously something wrong with the test. Thankfully, that never occured in my educational experience.
That's all irrelevant though, imo, if the recruiter asks good questions. You can weed out the poor applicants in a sentence or two.
My GPA was good but not outstanding. For recruitment for an engineering firm, I think that in general, those with higher GPA's will perform better. Even if they are just good at cramming and test taking, it shows that they have persistence and work well under pressure.
My GPA wasn't outstanding because I was lazy when it came to classes that were not in my area of interest. However, among my structural clases I had a 4.0.
The field engineer, or any kind of engineer, who is unable to get good grades in relevant classes is likely not as prepared as the engineer who got good grades. Obviously experience can make up for the grades, but we're talking from a recruiter's perspective who is looking at applicants just out of school.
If a student really understands the material, he/she should be able to make the grade. If they cannot, then there is obviously something wrong with the test. Thankfully, that never occured in my educational experience.
That's all irrelevant though, imo, if the recruiter asks good questions. You can weed out the poor applicants in a sentence or two.
GPA certainly does have a bearing on where a person will fit best in a company. I would not dream of hiring a high GPA engineer for a field position, in my experience, they are not a good fit. There are of course exceptions, but I will let someone else weed out those candidates. Field engineering positions require a good technical knowledge, but also require much better interpersonal skills then a design engineering position requires. My experience is the lower GPA students have better interpersonal skills then the so called "smart" students.
Greg, a low GPA does not mean lazy, stupid or any other label you would like to put on it, some of us knew from the beginning the diploma is far more important then the GPA and enjoyed our college time instead of working ourselves to the bone.
Greg, a low GPA does not mean lazy, stupid or any other label you would like to put on it, some of us knew from the beginning the diploma is far more important then the GPA and enjoyed our college time instead of working ourselves to the bone.
I can't imagine the company I work for now would hire me if they looked only at my transcript.... but relating to the original post, if it is your first job, what other form of comparison do they have, besides the interview, to compare you to other candidates??? But in my first job I outperformed many of the engineers that had been there for years. On top of that I always felt that students who do well in school are good at doing well in school. Engineers that "did" well in school does not make them a better engineer. I think the best traits of any engineer I have worked with and would be the top candidates wherever they were hired into are:
1. Honesty and being Forthright
2. Creativity
3. Positive Attitude
4. Ability to make analagies to previous work and shape/change them to suit present problems
If you have these traits, notice how two of them have nothing to do with engineering, you will do well in almost anything. Just try to be the best at what you do, the first time and everytime.
1. Honesty and being Forthright
2. Creativity
3. Positive Attitude
4. Ability to make analagies to previous work and shape/change them to suit present problems
If you have these traits, notice how two of them have nothing to do with engineering, you will do well in almost anything. Just try to be the best at what you do, the first time and everytime.
btrueblood
Mechanical
Ahem. SomptingGuy:
"A disorganised, skatty rocket scientist"
...is usually disorganized and scattered all about the countryside. Very short career path (maybe that should be carreer?). I know, as I did that job, and had a few near misses.
"A disorganised, skatty rocket scientist"
...is usually disorganized and scattered all about the countryside. Very short career path (maybe that should be carreer?). I know, as I did that job, and had a few near misses.
Funny, part of my course at university covered Rocket Science.
It was one of the easier aspects of Aerospace/Aeronautics, although of course we didn't go into much detail with the actual mechanics or chemistry.
Scatty disorganized weapons engineers are equally if not more dangerous, came across a few of them.
Can't remember if anyone already said this but I'm tempted to say grades are more of an issue in the US than UK, but this is based on limited experiene.
It was one of the easier aspects of Aerospace/Aeronautics, although of course we didn't go into much detail with the actual mechanics or chemistry.
Scatty disorganized weapons engineers are equally if not more dangerous, came across a few of them.
Can't remember if anyone already said this but I'm tempted to say grades are more of an issue in the US than UK, but this is based on limited experiene.
GregLocock
Automotive
mbensema
That was not my point. My point was : Why is it legitimate to assume that low educational achievement equates to good interpersonal skills?
Admittedly I asked it in a provocative fashion.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
That was not my point. My point was : Why is it legitimate to assume that low educational achievement equates to good interpersonal skills?
Admittedly I asked it in a provocative fashion.
Cheers
Greg Locock
Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.
That sounds a lot better
To answer your question, it doesn't necessarily mean they will have good interpersonal skills, but on average, they tend to. My experience is the low GPA guys were out at the bars far more often, had manual labor type summer jobs instead of internships and were good at thinking on their feet, all of this helps in field positions. There are of course lots of low GPA engineers that are none of those as well.
To answer your question, it doesn't necessarily mean they will have good interpersonal skills, but on average, they tend to. My experience is the low GPA guys were out at the bars far more often, had manual labor type summer jobs instead of internships and were good at thinking on their feet, all of this helps in field positions. There are of course lots of low GPA engineers that are none of those as well.
SomptingGuy
Automotive
I got a good first and blew my grant, bursary and more in London's pubs. I don't see the need to be either academic or human.
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The US engineering career system seems to be a different progression to the Aus one. In Australia the phrase is 'P's make degrees' ie passes are all that is required. Funnily enough people who graduate with high GPA's (6 or 7 out of 7) go and do their PHD's. People with 5 of 6's tend to be employed by the big end of town as design engineers in the multi-nationals and people in the low end 4.0's or below get employed by government, small companies as design engineers or as construction engineers. In terms of dollars construction engineers get paid the most and people with PHD's the least. It doesn't pay to be the smartest kid in the class does it?
There is also a saying in Oz, some engineers have 10 years experience, some engineers have 10 x 1 years experience. If you get stuck in a job in which you are doing the same thing over and over again you are worth nothing more than a first year graduate. This happens quite a lot with people who are employed in big companies. I would suggest to any engineer to expand your experience, do something different, take a chance and change streams even if it means taking a pay cut.
In terms of GPA to your actual value as an engineer, I have yet to see a correlation. A high GPA only demonstrates that someone is good at taking exams. A good recommendation from a collegue or even better a boss/supervisor demonstrates that you are a problem solver in the real world. It is worth its weight in gold and often quite a few dollars as well.
There is also a saying in Oz, some engineers have 10 years experience, some engineers have 10 x 1 years experience. If you get stuck in a job in which you are doing the same thing over and over again you are worth nothing more than a first year graduate. This happens quite a lot with people who are employed in big companies. I would suggest to any engineer to expand your experience, do something different, take a chance and change streams even if it means taking a pay cut.
In terms of GPA to your actual value as an engineer, I have yet to see a correlation. A high GPA only demonstrates that someone is good at taking exams. A good recommendation from a collegue or even better a boss/supervisor demonstrates that you are a problem solver in the real world. It is worth its weight in gold and often quite a few dollars as well.
Technical/academic knowledge may carry weight of say 30%, if all ingredients required for success are to be 100%, if you measure success in monetary reward. Interpersonal skills, comnnunication skills, identifying opportunities, having visons etc makes up the rest. The vision the most.
Many university gold medalists are content with doing technical grunt work and becoming director of some institution etc. and not interested in becoming businessman.
Greatest example, Bill Gates! I have much more repsect for people of that kind.
I agree in general with what sms said. I have not read all posts.
Many university gold medalists are content with doing technical grunt work and becoming director of some institution etc. and not interested in becoming businessman.
Greatest example, Bill Gates! I have much more repsect for people of that kind.
I agree in general with what sms said. I have not read all posts.
I have to agree with most of the post but go on the end that good grades do reflect your ability and drive to grow and understand the basic concepts in the trade you have chosen to pursue. Although not a direct indicator of your longterm ability and after you land that first job, I would advise those who are in school who maybe reading these posts to definitely go for gold. And if you get bronze be ready to present future employers with a work ethic and drive that will prove more valuable to them than some kid who can ace a test.
SHort speal I would give an employer:
I personally failed physics 1 and withdrew from Calc 1. But that wasn't going to stop me. I went on to get my Masters. I know what it takes to fail and what it takes to succeed. Hire me.
SHort speal I would give an employer:
I personally failed physics 1 and withdrew from Calc 1. But that wasn't going to stop me. I went on to get my Masters. I know what it takes to fail and what it takes to succeed. Hire me.
Hey everyone, I'm a new engineer and also new to this forum. I personally think grades have quite a bit to do where you initially start off, after that, it's all what you do. Here has been my experience: I went to a small private school known for its mechanical engineering program. This school is well known in the Metro-Detroit and general Michigan area, but is NOT known nationally. I had an amazing experience here because of the small class sizes. I remember my dynamics course and thermo course having only 10 people in them. My professors knew me extremely well and because of that, and them knowing my strengths and capabilities, I was able to get into fuel cell research with one of them. My higher gpa (3.6/4.0) allowed me to land Co-ops at big name international automotive companies. By the time I graduated I had 25 months worth of Co-op experience a 3 companies. I now work for one of the top Auto OEMs...they are Japanese based and don't start with an H, should be easy to figure out. I think my high gpa allowed me to land really great Co-ops, where I got tons of design experience, and both those factors allowed me to land my current job as a vehicle design engineer. Company I work for won't even interview a candidate w.out at least a 3.0/4.0 and from talking around it seems that everyone has at least a 3.3+gpa/4.0.
I decided to get an engineering degree after spending 20+ years in CAD and IT support positions. I graduated with a B.S. in manufacturing engineering technology with a 3.78/4.00 GPA.
I had a great internship and got my first job without even interviewing before I graduated. Then I got laid off after less than a year out of college. That hurt! But I wasn't interested in staying at that particular company so it all worked out for the best. I recieved a very nice severance package and was able to take a month or so off before starting to look for work.
It took a while to find another job. I interviewed for almost 50% of the jobs I applied for. I think the GPA helped in getting those interviews. The problem I encountered in getting hired was being a short, round, gray haired female with 20+ years of work experience in a very different industry (IT) that paid very well. Most of the companies I interviewed with assumed that I expected a really high wage because of my previous experience though I kept reassuring them that that was not the case.
I had a great internship and got my first job without even interviewing before I graduated. Then I got laid off after less than a year out of college. That hurt! But I wasn't interested in staying at that particular company so it all worked out for the best. I recieved a very nice severance package and was able to take a month or so off before starting to look for work.
It took a while to find another job. I interviewed for almost 50% of the jobs I applied for. I think the GPA helped in getting those interviews. The problem I encountered in getting hired was being a short, round, gray haired female with 20+ years of work experience in a very different industry (IT) that paid very well. Most of the companies I interviewed with assumed that I expected a really high wage because of my previous experience though I kept reassuring them that that was not the case.
I did not have the hottest GPA (~2.5) coming out of college and that definetly hurt my oportunities. However, the biggest impact was on my confidence level when I went to interviews and everyone i was competing with had above 3.0 GPA's. I spent 1.5 years working in the manufacturing world where i proved i could come up with solutions to complicated problems. Most manufactuirng positions are great learning positions where fresh graduates are exposed to real world problems but where most solutions are very accessible.
Through my experience in manufactuirng i gained confidence and experience that proved invaluable when i reapplied in the Aerospace field. fade2blue all i can tell you is that it's never too late to give up on your dreams, there are always other functions you can do to make yourself better in the market. The way i looked at it was that i didn't HAVE to get paid to work in Aerospace, so i built gliders as a hobby. The same can be said about any field, if you're an ME there are tons of hobbies you can pick up to maintain your skill, or undersand your concepts even further. Believe me, when you show up at an interview and you show them what you've done after college in terms of building on your education, this can be as valuable as a 3.5 GPA beucase it shows them you not only understand the concepts but you can apply them to solve REAL WORLD problems!
In short grades are ALWAYS important, however not having great grades are NOT a show stopper. If your field of study IS your passion you will find a way to develop those skills whether you're amployed by a company in your field of study or are flipping burgers at McDonalds and you need to pick up hobbies.
Through my experience in manufactuirng i gained confidence and experience that proved invaluable when i reapplied in the Aerospace field. fade2blue all i can tell you is that it's never too late to give up on your dreams, there are always other functions you can do to make yourself better in the market. The way i looked at it was that i didn't HAVE to get paid to work in Aerospace, so i built gliders as a hobby. The same can be said about any field, if you're an ME there are tons of hobbies you can pick up to maintain your skill, or undersand your concepts even further. Believe me, when you show up at an interview and you show them what you've done after college in terms of building on your education, this can be as valuable as a 3.5 GPA beucase it shows them you not only understand the concepts but you can apply them to solve REAL WORLD problems!
In short grades are ALWAYS important, however not having great grades are NOT a show stopper. If your field of study IS your passion you will find a way to develop those skills whether you're amployed by a company in your field of study or are flipping burgers at McDonalds and you need to pick up hobbies.
I got a 2.47/4 GPA and a Large State School.
The only reason I got two interviews with larger companies was because I applied for a US patent, Interned for a company that made parts for GM, BMW, and Daimler-C.
the two bigger companies both asked my gpa and in the interviews really stressed my EXTREMLY low gpa...
the both offered me crappy jobs with low starting pay and bad benefits with little to no room to negotiate.
a smaller company that I interviewed for, had no interest in my gpa, loved my previous work experience which included working in Denmark, and El Salvador and the fact that I love fixing bikes... I got good pay and I was able to negotiate a little and even got them to pay for any further education in full! (Given I pass with a (C ) and work a extra year after finishing classes)
Yes I would say GPA greatly makes a difference to some people.... Guess which job I took?????????
Regards
JD
The only reason I got two interviews with larger companies was because I applied for a US patent, Interned for a company that made parts for GM, BMW, and Daimler-C.
the two bigger companies both asked my gpa and in the interviews really stressed my EXTREMLY low gpa...
the both offered me crappy jobs with low starting pay and bad benefits with little to no room to negotiate.
a smaller company that I interviewed for, had no interest in my gpa, loved my previous work experience which included working in Denmark, and El Salvador and the fact that I love fixing bikes... I got good pay and I was able to negotiate a little and even got them to pay for any further education in full! (Given I pass with a (C ) and work a extra year after finishing classes)
Yes I would say GPA greatly makes a difference to some people.... Guess which job I took?????????
Regards
JD
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