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24-level building tower fire in West London 33
- Thread starter Ingenuity
- Start date
The Hotpoint was just the initial source and the firemen were on site to extinguish it. The only problem Hotpoint could have, I think, was if they were aware of a fire issue with that product, and did nothing. The location of the fridge is adjacent to the stove and approximately 4'-5' from the window, which may have been open. This is shown on one of the floor plans. I'll see if I can dig up the drawing. My little bot downloaded about 60 files from the one website.
Dik
Dik
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2
- #182
This BBC News article has some pointed views on the state of the regulatory regime.
Lots to say about how binding the detailed regulations are, how far you get to choose your inspectors and the routes you can choose if you don't want to comply with the detailed regulations.
Don't know whether it happens across the world, but politicians of all colours here have got into the habit of using "improving choice" as a powerful argument to justify all manner of controversial policies.
A.
Lots to say about how binding the detailed regulations are, how far you get to choose your inspectors and the routes you can choose if you don't want to comply with the detailed regulations.
Don't know whether it happens across the world, but politicians of all colours here have got into the habit of using "improving choice" as a powerful argument to justify all manner of controversial policies.
A.
epoxybot,
Some interesting analysis above - thank you, it has been quite educational for me.
I can't agree with your remark "That said, by British Standards specification, the power cord for most UK refrigerators are undersized for the current the draws when the motor starts." because that situation applies to virtually all motors throughout industry - cables are sized to withstand the starting current for the starting period, but they are neither able to nor required to carry the starting current indefinitely, and protection would operate long before that point. The same would apply to the plug-top fuse on the end of the appliance cord. Most refrigerators would have a 3A or 5A fuse, and the appliance cord would typically be 0.5mm² or 0.75m², both of which are adequately protected by either of those fuselink sizes.
Some interesting analysis above - thank you, it has been quite educational for me.
I can't agree with your remark "That said, by British Standards specification, the power cord for most UK refrigerators are undersized for the current the draws when the motor starts." because that situation applies to virtually all motors throughout industry - cables are sized to withstand the starting current for the starting period, but they are neither able to nor required to carry the starting current indefinitely, and protection would operate long before that point. The same would apply to the plug-top fuse on the end of the appliance cord. Most refrigerators would have a 3A or 5A fuse, and the appliance cord would typically be 0.5mm² or 0.75m², both of which are adequately protected by either of those fuselink sizes.
ScottyUK (Electrical)
Thanks Scotty, I did actually read up on the cord size/fuse ratio. But I'm also wondering about damaged induced as a result of the lack of power and how such an appliance later deals with a power surge. Normally an appliance that is under powered will begin to under perform and eventually just stop working. For the record, the Hotpoint was a 13 amp fridge.
I think, here in the US, lawsuits have conditioned manufactures to use a more robust power cord on major appliances. I don't know if I mentioned it here or elsewhere but increasingly the UK is encountering situations that come about because incoming populations are accustomed to using primitive solutions to what, for many has been a frequent problem in the old country. Hence doing something like running a heavy gauge of wire across the fuse gap, might strike them as a simple way to deal with KCTMO not solving the power problem in a reasonable time. Crazy to you or me but Old Country Know How to a handy guy with a little knowledge. The tenants described the lights flashing on & off or up & down intensely for weeks prior to the outage. So it comes down to duration and amperage. If they had "power spikes" as well as surges and the spikes were below a certain amperage, then the fuses would not blown. It takes 0.3 seconds for 100 amps to blow a 13 amp fuse. But how many blown fuses from power surges or spikes can an appliance take before it is compromised? But I labor the issue. I'm really adamant that the investigation into the cause of the fire, also look at the condition of the remaining building wiring and appliances, the repairs by KCTMO in May/June 2013 and also the quality of the power delivered to the rest of the area. Since the surges seemed to be something that occurred at night, the power delivered needs to be examined as well.
Do you think it likely that a tower flat built in the early 70's had ring circuits, possibly shared ring circuits? And what about aluminum wiring? What happens on a shared circuit if just as your refrigerator motor draws a heavy current, your neighbors washing machine turns off? Is it like the poor soul in the upstairs shower that gets fried when the downstairs shower is shutoff?
Thanks Scotty, I did actually read up on the cord size/fuse ratio. But I'm also wondering about damaged induced as a result of the lack of power and how such an appliance later deals with a power surge. Normally an appliance that is under powered will begin to under perform and eventually just stop working. For the record, the Hotpoint was a 13 amp fridge.
I think, here in the US, lawsuits have conditioned manufactures to use a more robust power cord on major appliances. I don't know if I mentioned it here or elsewhere but increasingly the UK is encountering situations that come about because incoming populations are accustomed to using primitive solutions to what, for many has been a frequent problem in the old country. Hence doing something like running a heavy gauge of wire across the fuse gap, might strike them as a simple way to deal with KCTMO not solving the power problem in a reasonable time. Crazy to you or me but Old Country Know How to a handy guy with a little knowledge. The tenants described the lights flashing on & off or up & down intensely for weeks prior to the outage. So it comes down to duration and amperage. If they had "power spikes" as well as surges and the spikes were below a certain amperage, then the fuses would not blown. It takes 0.3 seconds for 100 amps to blow a 13 amp fuse. But how many blown fuses from power surges or spikes can an appliance take before it is compromised? But I labor the issue. I'm really adamant that the investigation into the cause of the fire, also look at the condition of the remaining building wiring and appliances, the repairs by KCTMO in May/June 2013 and also the quality of the power delivered to the rest of the area. Since the surges seemed to be something that occurred at night, the power delivered needs to be examined as well.
Do you think it likely that a tower flat built in the early 70's had ring circuits, possibly shared ring circuits? And what about aluminum wiring? What happens on a shared circuit if just as your refrigerator motor draws a heavy current, your neighbors washing machine turns off? Is it like the poor soul in the upstairs shower that gets fried when the downstairs shower is shutoff?
They seem to be moving forward, from the guardian, "A recently retired court of appeal judge who specialised in commercial law has been appointed to head the inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire. Sir Martin Moore-Bick, 70, only left the bench last December."
Link:
Dik
Link:
Dik
Hi epoxybot,
It will be interesting to see what the investigation concludes about the origin of the fire. The electrical installation seems to be a cause for concern in its own right based on the problems described by tenants, regardless of the appliances connected to it. I have no idea if aluminium wiring was still in service; the tower is of the right age for it to be a credible possibility although I must say I'm surprised it has lasted this long. Could be ring or radial socket arrangement, I would guess ring but I don't do much work with domestic / light commercial installs. If individual units mutually affect each other's supply that would suggest problems may exist in the main distribution within the building as well as the final circuits in the apartments.
Our Electricity at Work Regulations require that wiring is inspected and tested as required to prevent danger. These regulations don't apply to domestic properties, except when the property is owned by one party and rented to another party as is the case here. From the problems described by the tenants it is hard to imagine that the wiring passed any inspection and it will be interesting to see how aggressively that line of enquiry is pursued.
I didn't mean to drag this thread way off into the weeds: regardless of the cause of the initial fire it is frightening that it was able to escalate in the way that it did.
It will be interesting to see what the investigation concludes about the origin of the fire. The electrical installation seems to be a cause for concern in its own right based on the problems described by tenants, regardless of the appliances connected to it. I have no idea if aluminium wiring was still in service; the tower is of the right age for it to be a credible possibility although I must say I'm surprised it has lasted this long. Could be ring or radial socket arrangement, I would guess ring but I don't do much work with domestic / light commercial installs. If individual units mutually affect each other's supply that would suggest problems may exist in the main distribution within the building as well as the final circuits in the apartments.
Our Electricity at Work Regulations require that wiring is inspected and tested as required to prevent danger. These regulations don't apply to domestic properties, except when the property is owned by one party and rented to another party as is the case here. From the problems described by the tenants it is hard to imagine that the wiring passed any inspection and it will be interesting to see how aggressively that line of enquiry is pursued.
I didn't mean to drag this thread way off into the weeds: regardless of the cause of the initial fire it is frightening that it was able to escalate in the way that it did.
Off to a good start...
from the Guardian, " Grenfell survivors barred from council meeting about fire... Kensington and Chelsea council says cabinet meeting will be held behind closed doors, with media also banned...
The only subject on the agenda is the fire, in which at least 80 people died. This will be an “oral item”, with no written report...
It is also not clear on what legal basis, if any, the council plans to bar the media. A council spokesman said he did not know, and asked the Guardian to send any queries by email. There was no immediate response to the email...
Its chief executive, Nicholas Holgate, resigned last week, after pressure from the communities secretary, Sajid Javid.
Calls have been made for Paget-Brown to follow, with London’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, demanding the resignation of the entire council leadership."
Link:
and, an update, "A judge has ordered a London council to lift a ban on the media reporting on the first meeting of councillors to discuss the Grenfell Tower disaster, after a legal challenge by the Guardian and other media groups."
Link:
from the Guardian, " Grenfell survivors barred from council meeting about fire... Kensington and Chelsea council says cabinet meeting will be held behind closed doors, with media also banned...
The only subject on the agenda is the fire, in which at least 80 people died. This will be an “oral item”, with no written report...
It is also not clear on what legal basis, if any, the council plans to bar the media. A council spokesman said he did not know, and asked the Guardian to send any queries by email. There was no immediate response to the email...
Its chief executive, Nicholas Holgate, resigned last week, after pressure from the communities secretary, Sajid Javid.
Calls have been made for Paget-Brown to follow, with London’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, demanding the resignation of the entire council leadership."
Link:
and, an update, "A judge has ordered a London council to lift a ban on the media reporting on the first meeting of councillors to discuss the Grenfell Tower disaster, after a legal challenge by the Guardian and other media groups."
Link:
I find it disappointing that they're turning this into a social/societal disaster by deciding 34(?) more multistory buildings have the same issues and have 'run for your lives' kicked everyone out of their homes. What is that, 10,000+ people needing a place to live for only... 3 years(?) in a an already over crowded city.
Has no one any common sense there?
Keith Cress
kcress -
Has no one any common sense there?
Keith Cress
kcress -
This has the potential to be the architect's Piper Alpha: the moment when everything changes for a whole industry. I hope the judge leading this Public Enquiry is a thorough as Lord Cullen, and hopefully our awful government will not interfere with the independence of the Enquiry.
"We are continuing to seize material on a daily basis and the number of companies and organisations that we know so far to have played a role in the refurbishment alone is over 60. - Detective Chief Superintendent Fiona McCormack - Metropolitan Police Lead Investigator. Link
In the ENR piece, OMNOS/CEP Architectural Facades Ltd. certainly did their best to distance themselves from playing a crucial role in the disaster. They, knew the material they were selling and they knew it would only work under very specific conditions and they knew the material was not technically approved for the application. In defense they cite the industry organization that the BBC exposed as using creative means to do an end-run on the desired intent of the safety standard; which was to rule out materials inherently prone to contribute to a fire. While it does seem that Harley Facade shopped for the best price for all the components of the external cladding, most contractors are not material experts, they habitually come up with cost saving solutions that may create a facsimile of the desired result but frequently need to be told, YOU CAN"T DO THAT. Omnis was formed in 2013 by the amalgamation of six companies, including CEP. If I was looking for an expert in the UK that had direct links to the project and should have known better, I know who I would be looking at. Mind you, they could have said, I won't sell you the Reynobond PE but I will sell you the Reynobond FR. How does £5K for the cheaper material stack up against a sale of over £1 million? I think most people would look at that £5K and know they would sleep better at night having done what was in the best interest of both the public and a company with a annual profit of more than £1 million.
In the ENR piece, OMNOS/CEP Architectural Facades Ltd. certainly did their best to distance themselves from playing a crucial role in the disaster. They, knew the material they were selling and they knew it would only work under very specific conditions and they knew the material was not technically approved for the application. In defense they cite the industry organization that the BBC exposed as using creative means to do an end-run on the desired intent of the safety standard; which was to rule out materials inherently prone to contribute to a fire. While it does seem that Harley Facade shopped for the best price for all the components of the external cladding, most contractors are not material experts, they habitually come up with cost saving solutions that may create a facsimile of the desired result but frequently need to be told, YOU CAN"T DO THAT. Omnis was formed in 2013 by the amalgamation of six companies, including CEP. If I was looking for an expert in the UK that had direct links to the project and should have known better, I know who I would be looking at. Mind you, they could have said, I won't sell you the Reynobond PE but I will sell you the Reynobond FR. How does £5K for the cheaper material stack up against a sale of over £1 million? I think most people would look at that £5K and know they would sleep better at night having done what was in the best interest of both the public and a company with a annual profit of more than £1 million.
Scotty... he's already stated his limited scope... I'll see if I can find the link.
Added: "Sir Martin Moore-Bick said the probe could be limited to the cause, how it spread, and preventing a future blaze."
Link:
Dik
Added: "Sir Martin Moore-Bick said the probe could be limited to the cause, how it spread, and preventing a future blaze."
Link:
Dik
epoxybot said:
An example of the frustrations of trying to get anything done effectively within the scope of European public procurement regulations (or domestic laws enacting the Directives).
There is a paralysing fear that any complexity in the procurement, and in particular any spec change that might favour one bidder over another, will lead to a threat of legal challenge, bringing the project to a complete standstill for eighteen months. This fear has created a rampant culture of "lowest priced bid that isn't overtly noncompliant gets the job - and don't put anything that might disadvantage any of the potential bidders into the spec unless you can prove it's a truly inescapable element of the requirement". Under that regime, there is absolutely no incentive to add a £5k embellishment to the bid - that might be the £5k that means the £1m contract goes to your competitor.
A.
zeusfaber (Military) & dik (Structural)
It seem it was the Council of RBK&C that put pressure on KC-TMO to get the cladding cost to the minimum, in emails from June/July 2014. Rydon was "awarded" the project on Jun 2, 2014. Link
Here is a link to the actual window placement. The windows were, in fact marginally the same size as the original windows but they were moved outwards increasing the gap between the column & the spandrel panel by about 6 inches. Link
Here is Harley Facades Mock-Up submittal: Link
Studio E's palette submittal: Link
Studio E's Material Sample palette, including window Mfr.: Link
RBKC Addition Grenfell Documents pages Link & Link
Conspicuously absent is any concise description of the actual ACM material. Did Studio E, do so because they didn't want to generate a document showing knowledge of the intended material on a company document or did they do so at the instruction of another parties?
It seem it was the Council of RBK&C that put pressure on KC-TMO to get the cladding cost to the minimum, in emails from June/July 2014. Rydon was "awarded" the project on Jun 2, 2014. Link
Here is a link to the actual window placement. The windows were, in fact marginally the same size as the original windows but they were moved outwards increasing the gap between the column & the spandrel panel by about 6 inches. Link
Here is Harley Facades Mock-Up submittal: Link
Studio E's palette submittal: Link
Studio E's Material Sample palette, including window Mfr.: Link
RBKC Addition Grenfell Documents pages Link & Link
Conspicuously absent is any concise description of the actual ACM material. Did Studio E, do so because they didn't want to generate a document showing knowledge of the intended material on a company document or did they do so at the instruction of another parties?
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