7178-T651 Mil-Hdk-5D Material properties thread2-188255 1

[OnAQuest]

Could someone please let me know, in order of preference, how to:
1) download a pdf of Mil-Hdbk-5D.
2) download a pdf of the mechanical properties data for 7178-T651 Extrusion from Mil-Hdbk-5D.
3) reply with the properties (especially the yield and ultimate bearing stress allowables for 1.5 & 2 e/D).
Thank you

 

[rb1957]

a yahoo for "7178 +Aluminium" found the matweb.com site with some info on 7178

 

[CoryPad]

I would contact Kaiser Aluminum for this information.

Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[bf109g]

OnAQuest -

If you go here

http://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/

and type in "Mil-Hdbk-5", you'll get 5H and 5J.

5D is ancient history (as is 5H and 5J for that matter).

 

[rb1957]

i looked at later versions ... it looks like they dropped 7178, in that they weren't there, and i'm assuming the OP knows they were there at D (as he's being so specific)

 

[OnAQuest]

Thank you for your timely responses.

I found in some older threads that the material type that I am looking for is in Mil-Hdbk-5D. I need it from this particular source as this is for aircraft design and rework (MatWeb won't be acceptable). I've been told that this alloy was from a certain airframe manufacturer. I don't know if Kaiser would have any information especially at this level (sufficient to please the FAA). I had already spent hours on the web trying to find information there, to no avail.

I believe that I might be able to order a rev D from IHS, but at a cost of >US$250. Could someone please explain to me how all of these documents (it is not just Mil-Hdbk-5) that were paid for by our tax dollars and offered freely to any and all previously, now can only be obtained at such an unreasonable cost (the current revisions are $500)? Is there any law against someone that has older paper copies from pdf'ing them and making them available on the web for free or perhaps at a more reasonable cost?

But I digress. I'd be happy with any of the information requested in the original post for now.

Thanks

 

[bf109g]

rb1957 -

It would appear that in my eagerness to respond, I missed the specificity of the request.

My earliest hardcopy is -5F.

OnAQuest –

I was able to dig this up in my stack of stuff:

Thickness ?.061-

Fbru 107ksi (e/D=1.5)
131ksi (e/D=2.0)

Fbry 99ksi (e/D=1.5)
106ksi (e/D=2.0)

Thickness .062-.249-

Fbru 109ksi (e/D=1.5)
134ksi (e/D=2.0)

Fbry 99ksi (e/D=1.5)
106ksi (e/D=2.0)

These are “A” basis values for 7178 T6511/T6510 (QQ-A-200/13 extrusion).

Hope that helps.

 

[Compositepro]

"This year, 2003, marks the first year of publication of the MMPDS Handbook and the final year of publication of MIL-HDBK-5.
For this year only, MMPDS-01 and MIL-HDBK-5J will be technically equivalent. In the spring of 2004, when the 1st Change
Notice of MMPDS-01 is published, MIL-HDBK-5 will be designated noncurrent and MMPDS will become the only governmentrecognized
source in the U.S. of published design allowable properties for metallic commercial and military aircraft structures
and mechanically fastened joints. In this way, the 65-year legacy of MIL-HDBK-5, and its predecessor ANC-5, will be
maintained."

 

[OnAQuest]

Thanks for your replies. I need to have a reference that I can quote the infromation from and where I got it. That is why I prefer a pdf of the page in Mil-Hdbk-5D. Unfortunately, I can't use another manufacturer's data (I already have that) unless it is somehow public domain, and of course needs to meet Mil-Hdbk-5 level of data integrity.

I have seen the "This year, 2003, marks the first year of publication of the MMPDS Handbook..." already. The last line "...In this way, the 65-year legacy of MIL-HDBK-5, and its predecessor ANC-5, will be
maintained." is simply not true as there has been a lot of useful data deleted over the various revisions. This post being a good example. I wonder how much of what gets published is supplier selected?

 

[rb1957]

bf109g,

did you try assist today ... "doc description" = "mil-hdbk-5" didn't hit our target (i'm sure it did in the past)

mil-hdbk-5.org now supports only MMPDS (sigh)

some of my older bookmarks have given up the ghost

 

[CoryPad]

I don't know if Kaiser would have any information especially at this level (sufficient to please the FAA). I had already spent hours on the web trying to find information there, to no avail.

Internet search vs. contacting a knowledgeable supplier that is integral to populating aerospace industry documents with materials information - not a difficult decision.


Regards,

Cory

Please see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips Fora.

 

[bf109g]

rb1957 -

The Assist site was where I used to go for those older versions. They used to be included in the IHS historical docs, but no more.

No to mention my mentor, who had hard copies of all those docs, back to ANC-5, has passed on.

Just reinforces my pack rat behavior when it comes to collecting data.

 

[rb1957]

me too, but no longer !

 

[WKTaylor]

Onaquest...

All MIL-HDBK-5s (MIL-HDBK-5 [1962] thru MIL-HDBK-5J) are available thru IHS Specs & Stndrds. Just search for MIL-HDBK-5 (without a Rev letter) and they will all show-up.

And Yes... I have handy access to all MIL-HDBK-5 versions plus MMPDS-01-thru-03 AND ANC-5... because I work on a REALLY old large acft. For the antique (obsolete) alloys and/or specs the he old books are the "only" place to find allowables... and the newer materials (MMPDS) are the available... but not necessarily equivalent... subs.

Regards, Wil Taylor

 

[rb1957]

ahh, the benefits for be able to pay for what you want !

 

[OnAQuest]

Mr. wktaylor
Your copies aren't pdf's are they? If so, could they be made available? Perhaps on disk to keep from upsetting the IT folks? If not, could I please get a copy of at least the page(s) dealing with 7178-T651 extrusion?
Thanks

 

[rb1957]

hummm ... will pays for his info, and you want him to give it away, no doubt in conflict with his registration with IHS ... hummmm

i guess that raises an interesting question, who has the copyright of the original docs ? IHS are making pdfs available to people who buy them; what's to stop someone who has a paper copy from posting it as a pdf ?

 

[OnAQuest]

I asked in a earlier post about the legalities of the situation. No one answered. I also assumed that these were in his possession long before these having to purchase shenanigans started as he is clearly not a new comer to the biz. I am not asking anyone to violate the law even if the claim to the rights of the laws is shaky. For what it is worth, I am also in the process of trying to legally get Mr. Taylor a copy of something that he expressed a intrest in. Yes, my copy is legal.

 

[WKTaylor]

Onaquest...

I am reluctant to distill/send only the pages for 7178 from -5D for the following reason:

There are SUBSTANTIAL differences in allowables for 7178 [sheet/plate-bare/clad; all forgings; all extrusions) between MIL-HDBK-5 (1962), MIL-HDBK-5A-Rev C4 (1970), and MIL-HDBK-5D-Rev C2 (1985). In this case, the allowables appear to drop substantially between 5 & 5A-C4... then vary slightly between 5A-C4 & 5d-C2. GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!! as Dilbert would say....
-------------------------------

"CAUTION/WARNING" to all who analyze obslete alloys such as 7178... and even some of the "current generation" materials:

"Migrating Allowables" present a serious challenge-obstacle-trap: you need to be VERY carefull which "MIL-HDBK-5 Revision" You choose to select allowable values from! USUALLY I recommend allowables that would equate to the exact material spec (and spec revision) and/or signing date(s) on the engineering drawing.

Note: there are too many potential reasons for changes in the allowables tables to discuss here...

Note: I also have copies of old (archived) "company" design manuals and the Batelle Aerospace Metals Handbooks as "back-up" sanity-check sources. CAUTION: the "comapny" manuals also show similar trends in allowables (migrating).



Regards, Wil Taylor

 

[bf109g]

rb1957 -

I don't believe that there is a copyright on MIL-HDBK-5. So you would be in the clear if you had non-proprietary access, i.e. hardcopy or .pdf.

The "sticky wicket" comes into play when you access the document through an online or CD/DVD subscription service. SAE required that server access be limited to locations within 5 miles of the physical server. That became a problem as the server was 20 miles from the hangar where I was.

In any event, Wil is right about being cautious about using values for 7178 found in the old handbooks. The data I posted was dated 1990, with the caveat "For Existing Design Only".