Alaska Airlines flight forced to make an emergency landing... 82

[kjoiner]

Here is an article about one of the suppliers to Boeing:

https://nypost.com/2024/03/12/us-ne...-and-dish-soap-as-makeshift-tools-report/amp/

 

[waross]

I agree completely that the legal process does nothing to aid better safety.

The root cause needs understood and prevent it occurring again.

I disagree Alistair.
It has been shown conclusively that the present system is not working at Boeing.

Root cause to me is financial types overiding Engineering forcing them to use extremely dubious compromises to and in appropriate assumptions to drive the Engineering.

I think that it is time for the "Financial Types" to face criminal scrutiny for their actions in overiding engineering.

Those opposing the investigation have changed "Too Big to Fail" to "Too Big to Investigate".
I think that it is appropriate that after a serious incident there will be a criminal investigation.
If the investigation shows criminal misconduct, there should be charges.
The present Boeing and Spirit culture allow the "Financial Types" to make dangerous engineering decisions that put the public in harm's way with no responsibility for their actions.
How many deaths and accidents will it take before the 'Financial Types" are held criminally responsible for their decisions?

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Going after the Technical workers just prevents the true story being found out of what the financial types have been doing.

It's like that silly sod of a test pilot and the no documentation of mcas or informing the FAA certification of changes to it when it got hot rodded into a killer system.

With the premise of a 1960's stick and rudder boy would be around to save the day in 2020.

Btw the reason why I keep making this point is I have my doubt's I could have caught it. I definitely don't have any experience of working an aircraft without a central announcator panel playing hunt the red light in a Xmas tree when the master caution goes off.

All the SEP training aircraft had them. And it's been a certification requirement for over half a century to have one on new types or better.

 

[dik]

I suspect the root cause if profit!

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[3DDave]

You would not have caught 50 pounds of trim load after being told there is the potential for a trim load problem?

The first crew managed 100%, the second captain managed 100%; the most informed crew managed to f' every step. Hmmm. Every control available in each case functioned. The wheel trim button worked and stopped and could reverse the trim at any time, even to the point when the pilots, against training, attempted to re-engage the Autopilot with the stall warning and stick shaking.

No one had to look at anything except the instruments. Airspeed, trim setting, throttle setting. Are none of those on the list of things a pilot in command needs to worry about anymore and instead to have the Magic 8 Ball tell him what to do? Where is the dashboard warning about feathering the props on final?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Yes, which is why I see it as pointless chasing the technical for relatively minor finger pointing. It isn't going to fix the root cause

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Having watched a 737 trim wheel moving during a perfectly normal departure on the jump seat that thing really motors.

And it's constant even while hand flying.

It's seriously loud and rapid with collosal trim changes. And some of them make zero sense forward, backwards, some hunting then back into the huge trim changes.

There are issues with trim window for control forces which was never present with the none stretched versions.

As I say I am not 100% sure I would have caught it. 2/3 of crew didn't.

If there needs to be a specific skill set to fly them so be it.. But nobody would buy them.

 

[3DDave]

No one said anything about the trim wheel. There is a trim indicator and a trim force.

The captain of the second crew did catch it. 100%. For some reason the co-pilot thought trim force of over 50 pounds was normal and did not use the general purpose Cockpit Resource Management skill of talking with the captain about the increasing trim force. Which is why the FAA reminded pilots to use the trim button.

Does one need a specific skill not to set the pitch of the props to zero on final? Maybe no one should buy Dash-8 or Q400s.

Does one need a specific skill not to come in fast and high as PIA 8303? Maybe no one should buy an Airbus.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Most don't set them to zero torque on touch down.

The gradient of the trim force and requirement to reduce it within a none realistic time span which isn't present on a working aircraft or previous training aircraft is.

 

[3DDave]

Anyway - all of that is for the other thread. This thread is about a failure in factory floor process management, not cockpit resource management.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It's all linked..

It's an ethical failure of process from design through to production.

If the initial design process is flawed and concepts are alien to modern pilots. The production process is going to be just as alien.

 

[waross]

I suspect that we have a misunderstanding Alistair.
In Canada, the law makes upper management responsible for implementing and enforcing safety standards.
In the event of an industrial injury, the general manager may be found guilty of failing to ensure that proper safety procedures were in place and were followed.
Just the threat of actual jail time for top management turned the safety culture around quickly on Canadian construction projects.
This was the type of investigation that I visualized for Boeing and Spirit.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Well we went through this in Aberdeen after Piper Alpha.

The US system is set up so that the upper management is pretty much protected from legal consequences over there management policy's and actions. And the workers get penalised for carrying them out.

When they worked out the US oil managers were in line to have to justify themselves in court they were gone never to be seen again. They said that the pipeline boss that didn't stop pumping should be the one to carry the can. Not the big boss in Aberdeen who had fired the last one that shutdown the field.

That boss was charged but had left the country.

From what I have seen so far with the MAX not much has changed. They go after the small fry that can't
afford to pay legal fees not the big bosses. It's the workers fault for obeying instructions not the bosses fault for giving them.

Hopefully I am incorrect in the way it works.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

What is liquid dawn soap?

 

[Cool_Controls]

It's a brand of dish soap. I've used it to help fit crane tires, pump shaft seals, and as a cable lube. I would be surprised if Boeings SOP specifies dish soap.

 

[3DDave]

Yes - unlike the UK that put subpostmasters into prison because a foreign based company lied. The US is quite different that way.

 

[dik]

I didn't know the use if dish detergent was common...

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[dik]

I can imagine the American class action suit on that one... bankrupt the country.

-----*****-----
So strange to see the singularity approaching while the entire planet is rapidly turning into a hellscape. -John Coates

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I have only seen the technical use seal lubricant which is 50 dollars for 500ml.

Wouldn't have thought normal soap plays nice with the materials used.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It's working it's way through parliament at the moment. Think it's 4500 people getting clean records and compensation.

The boss of the post office at the has been stripped of various things I think.

Post office is government run still I think. It has a load of special law surrounding it.

Don't know that much about it.