Another drone takes down another helicopter 12

[Sparweb]

Not the first time.
In its report, the NTSB noted that it has now completed three investigations where a collision with a drone has been confirmed, and gathered information on two other collisions where the evidence is consistent with a drone strike.

The drone was operating above 400 feet AGL in airspace that did not permit this, and at night when this is not normally permitted either. The type of drone that probably hit the helicopter (based on the damage) is not the kind that would be equipped with proper anti-collision lights that would make night flight possible.

Here is another example, probably not in the NTSB count - although a much more avoidable one that should not have happened.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[dik]

why not 1000' and have helicopters stay outside this space, and if within it they have to take special precautions, flashing lights etc.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[IRstuff]

geofencing isn't necessarily simple for smaller drones; not all drones come with fully capable navigation systems. Geofencing would require access to and maintenance of a global database of airport boundaries and flight limitations to be retained in every drone sold, and they would need to be updated on nearly a daily basis as conditions/situations at various airports change. There's nothing technically challenging, but it's not going to be cheap; every drone sold would need to have access to the database on a daily basis, regardless of where it is in the US, or even the world, and there would need to be some sort of access fee for maintaining the database and for maintaining the ability to download the geofences.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[1503-44]

Likewise the operators (knowledgable operators anyway) supposedly know all the coordinates and limitations of the area they fly, thus that would only be a matter of data entry and transfer to the drone's software. Cheap drones <$150 can now be had with geofencing capabilities. The drone does not need access to data bases, only the operator of the day needs that, which can be entered into the drones fencing limit. That info is available to them at all times, just as are the up to the minute navigation features, NOTAMS and instrument landing plates are to pilots. And its not that expensive. There are several commercial companies that provide all that stuff on a worldwide basis.

Altitude info, although less accurate than horizontal position, could be taken from the third GPS coordinate, provided it is compensated for inaccuracies in altitude.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The issue is a lot of the rotary in USA is government or state agencies and wants to operate sub 400ft and doesn't want people to know about it.

Plus aircraft operate off pressure altitude not GPS height

That's where this ads-b with a receiver in the rotary comes from. Then the system can work out a relative height separation. But then that would allow spiffing of false contacts to allow areas of airspace to be blocked.

 

[1503-44]

Pressure altitude is just another reference setting that could be used with drones too, yet restricted airspace is top bounded using AGL anyway, so both references are in the system already.

It seems ADSB should always be treated as suspect, or at least "indicative" until verified by independent means. That's another problem, but not all that much different from having any uncontrolled aircraft in the sky, at least to a kamikaze pilot. The entire system is based on assuming pilots of all manned aircraft are competent and have intentions of staying alive. Drones upset that logic, so thereby become a potential high risk. And radio controlled model aircraft have been around for years as has model rocketry, both of which have been capable of doing severe damage to aircraft when combined with mal intentent, yet this is only becoming a problem today? Why is that?

I expect TX new firearms carrying laws (no permit, no training) will soon have much more lethal impact than drones will ever create. But yes, with all the various types of autonomous vehicles coming onto the streets and potentially filling the skies, both could compete head to head for the "Most Lethal" title. Why do Teslas run around with impunity from getting a ticket when I need a drivers license. How can autonomous helicopters go about on their own dumb AI, yet I need a pilots license? Why are tesla crashing into emergency vehicles? AI isn't ready for prime time. How'd they get on the streets in the first place?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Mainly because both RC airplanes and rockets it was rather expensive to get into and also require d a substantial skill level to maintain and get more than one flight out of them.

Drones you can buy them at Walmart and it's pretty likely your first flight with zero training with one will be uneventful with zero training.

Pressure altitude requires everyone to be on the same setting. Quite how they could make that work I don't know.

And the controlled airspace is defined to pilots above sea level normally apart from if we have a rad alt we have no way of knowing our height unless you set QFE which is spot pressure setting but that will only give it relative to that points altitude.

This is where the low level stuff becomes so difficult.

The reason why it's such a big issue in the USA is because there are so many drones and so many rotary fighting for the same airspace. And alot of the rotary is owned by the federal and state and see that airspace as Thiers.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And honestly I don't trust the autopilot in my brand new latest generation A220 and it works much better than previous autopilots I have used.

But I still have to get rid off it occasionally when it starts struggling especially autothrottle.. And autoland is not very pleasant in anything but benign conditions which to be fairs is what it's for landing in fog. And even then it's more consistent dumping it down than anything even remotely smooth.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

I still don’t understand why we cant/won’t just electronically limit drone use over 400’ and near airports. Seems like a simple software solution.

And how do you determine you're near an airport? Quite a few drones don't include GPS, just a standard sensor suite of MEMS accelerometers/gyroscopes. Even for ones that do, you need to provide updates to the coordinates as airports come into being, etc.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

To be fair apart from a few events which are a bit suspect anyway. The around airports is known about and doesn't happen very often. Laser pointers are more of an issue.

It's away from airports and the fact that rotary can and do land anywhere that the conflict arises.

And that's the easy stuff never mind a police helicopter doing camera work at an incident low level.

 

[1503-44]

I thought each traffic control zone broadcast the altimeter setting to use for FL18 or above, but I never flew that high.i think that's how they used to do it. When handed off to a different zone or to approach control at lower altitudes, the controllers would verbally tell the pilot the altimiter setting, course and next descent level, When departing, the altimeter setting was given in the ATIS recording along with current ceiling, wind, vis, temp and departure runways in use. That was awhile ago. Might have changed.

I think I saw some AGL restricted zones around here. Up near all the astronomical telescopes. I concede that point.

I used to shoot 3 stage model rockets to 1500f in the 60s. Cardboard, paper towel tubes, balsa nose cones and fins and Estes solid fueled rocket engines. The engines were only a couple$ each. $2.50 Sticks in my head. I only made $0.75/h at the mini golf course back then.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It's called transition level and yes in the USA it's 18000 ft on the way up and fl180 on the way down. And then once it set it will give altitude above sea level.

Arodrome altimeter setting or QFE as we call it in the rest of the world is only used in the military these days and even then only fast jets. And that will then mean you read zero after you land at the aerodrome.

The altimeter setting changes quite quickly away from an airport and it's even more variable low level due to wind speed.

Yes we still have atis which updates every 30 mins. But you need to have a VHF radio that can do aero Freq and be in line of sight of the transmitter. There is a thing call d atis now but you then need a method of recieving it.

The actual aircraft systems stay on 1013.3 mb and all your doing is adjusting what you see and target.

I was trying to see if USA airspace is done differently than Europe but my jepps app on the iPad only goes as far west as Greenland and east to India

I suppose you could have a transmitter that sends the correct setting to everything in the area but then your into every drone carrying coms in some form.

 

[1503-44]

Thanks.
This is kool.

https://skyvector.com

 

[1503-44]

Speaking of drones. This is on in the pump forum. Guy wants a super high pressure pump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bm2BVTTir4c

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=486873

 

[Spartan5]

Drones bother me. I know we can’t (technically) shoot them down. Though for trap shooting it doesn’t get much funner. But how much of my personal airspace may I make off-limits via other means?

Would I’d like to develop is a drone that I can deploy to search and neutralize any other drones that infringe upon my peace and quiet. Nothing like missiles or anything. Something that can launch a net or other entanglement material would suit me just fine. Hell, it could even be fully autonomous and self-sacrificial. Yes. A kamikaze drone would be perfect.

Or maybe a falcon with some fishing line on frangible links. Though I’d never want to hurt the bird. Might be easier to train than a neural net though.

 

[GregLocock]

I'd use a ground based microphone array for localisation and then some sort of homing device, possibly acoustic or electronic noise. I don't think you could train a bird to attack a propeller blade, they are generally very nervous about breaking feathers.

Cheers

Greg Locock


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[Spartan5]

They do have a distinct acoustic signature that would be easy to home in on.

As for birds…

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

From memory

There is a from hell to heaven principle on property rights in the USA.

But progressively that's been done away with.

In the 1940's things changed with a court case with a chicken farmer.

Then it was decided that the FAA owns all airspace rights at a federal level. But the owner has some rights over that airspace.

I think basically if the FAA license to say Amazon that they can fly there drones about at 250ft agl. Then there is nothing the property owners can do without going to court and proving there is an issue with it.

But some states have been fighting for years that the feds have absolutely no input into the airspace in there state and they will dictate what people can do.

There is similar issues in the UK and it's all a bit wooly.

 

[1503-44]

Nice application for model rocketry.

 

[1503-44]

Currect CFR

§ 91.121 Altimeter settings.
(a) Each person operating an aircraft shall maintain the cruising altitude or flight level of that aircraft, as the case may be, by reference to an altimeter that is set, when operating -

(1) Below 18,000 feet MSL, to -

(i) The current reported altimeter setting of a station along the route and within 100 nautical miles of the aircraft;

(ii) If there is no station within the area prescribed in paragraph (a)(1)(i) of this section, the current reported altimeter setting of an appropriate available station; or

(iii) In the case of an aircraft not equipped with a radio, the elevation of the departure airport or an appropriate altimeter setting available before departure; or

(2) At or above 18,000 feet MSL, to 29.92″ Hg.

(b) The lowest usable flight level is determined by the atmospheric pressure in the area of operation as shown in the following table:

Current altimeter setting Lowest usable flight level
29.92 (or higher) 180
29.91 through 29.42 185
29.41 through 28.92 190
28.91 through 28.42 195
28.41 through 27.92 200
27.91 through 27.42 205
27.41 through 26.92 210
(c) To convert minimum altitude prescribed under §§ 91.119 and 91.177 to the minimum flight level, the pilot shall take the flight level equivalent of the minimum altitude in feet and add the appropriate number of feet specified below, according to the current reported altimeter setting:

Current altimeter setting Adjustment factor
29.92 (or higher) None
29.91 through 29.42 500
29.41 through 28.92 1,000
28.91 through 28.42 1,500
28.41 through 27.92 2,000
27.91 through 27.42 2,500
27.41 through 26.92 3,000

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There is a sub zero C temp correction and also a wind speed if you within a 3000ft of the ground and it's over 30 knts.

But that's for us that fly pressurised high performance machines.

The drones that can get up to those levels are usually equipped with hellfires which means they can do what the hell they like in my book.

And that's FAA airspace rules. But in general pilots do as they are told so when told to go to an alt the set and when getting a flight level go to 1013