API 610 Temperature reading during testing.

[brygmann]

Dear fellow engineers,

I am delivering some pumps for the Norwegian Off shore market and my customer have requested a 4H mechanical run test according to API 610. The bearings are a ring oil-design according to the standard.
Now my pump supplier tells me that they will not measure the bearing temperature during the test as they think it's not mandatory.
My understanding of the API 610 is that during shop testing the sump oil temperature rise shall not exceed 40K above the ambient temperature. (Paragraph 6.10.2.4)
We ordered a 4H mechanical run test which is stated under chapter 8.3.4 in the standard. I quote the standard:
8.3.4 Optional tests

8.3.4.1 General
• If specified, the [highlight #FCE94F]shop tests[/highlight] described in 8.3 4.2 through 8.3.4.7 shall be performed. Test details and required data
(such as vibration and temperature data) shall be agreed upon by the purchaser and the vendor prior to
conducting the tests.

8.3.4.2 Mechanical run test
• 8.3.4.2.1 If specified, the pump shall be run on the test stand at the rated flow until oil temperature stabilization
(6.10.2 4) has been achieved.
• 8.3.4.2.2 If specified, the pump shall be mechanically run at the rated now for 4 h

As you can see the test is refered to as a shop test.

For the record, here is paragraph 6.10.2.4 which is a part of the design chapter:

6.10.2.4 Sufficient cooling. including an allowance for fouling, shall be provided to maintain oil and bearing temperatures as follows, based on the specified operating conditions and an ambient temperature of 43 •c
(11 0 "F)

a) for pressurized systems, oil outlet temperature below 70 "C (160 "F) and bearing metal temperatures (if
bearing-temperature sensors are supplied) less than 93 oc (200 •F): during shop testing, and under the most
adverse specified operating conditions, the bearing-oil temperature rise shall not exceed 28 K (50 •R);
A) is not applicable for my pumps.

b) for ring-oiled or splash systems, an oil-sump temperature below 82 •c (180 "F); during shop testing, the
sump oil temperature rise shall not exceed 40 K (70 "R) above the ambient temperature in the test cell
measured at the time of each reading and (if bearing-temperature sensors are supplied) outer ring
temperatures shall not exceed 93 •c (200 "F).

NOTE Pumps equipped with ring-oiled or splash lubrication systems normally do not reach temperature stabilization
during performance tests of short duration and sometimes not even in 4 h tests Temperature-stabilization testing IS addressed
in 8 3 4 2 1


Can someone with the proper experience please tell me who's right and if I am wrong, why?
For the record my company delivers a lot of API 610 pumps and this has never been a issue with any other supplier before.

Thanks for the help!

 

[LittleInch]

It all depends on whether you have actually "specified" it or not. Whilst I think the pump supplier is being pedantic and nit picking, the wording does separate out the tests which say "if specified". If all you asked for was a 4 hour test then that is all the pump supplier needs to do. If you specified a 4 hour run test and "all tests within section 8.3.4.2 " then the supplier should do that.

In essence you are both right - you / client called for a 4 hour test expecting that the supplier would do all the tests that you have had from other vendors and he is being very pedantic and saying that all you asked for was 8.3.4.2.2 NOT 8.3.4.2.1. Maybe the vendor was a lawyer in an earlier life or has a problem with the oil temperature or knows that a run test to stabilise the oil temperature could take a long time (> 4H). I don't know, but the way round is to say you want it (asusming you weren't precise enough in your specification), he gives you an extra price / schedule impact and then you and the client decide whether it's worth it. In the mena time you add it into your specification to include it next time.

That's my reading of it anyway.

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[BigInch]

First ask him if he likes doing business with you.

Independent events are seldomly independent.

 

[brygmann]

Thanks for your reply LittleInch,

But I think you're making the same assumption as I think my supplier does. And at first I did the same.
I do not say that they have to run the pumps until the bearing temperatures are stable. That is a different test than I specified and I agree. We specified a 4 hour run test. However the 6.10.2.4 states, and I will write it again:
b) for ring-oiled or splash systems, an oil-sump temperature below 82 •c (180 "F); [highlight #FCE94F]during shop testing, the
sump oil temperature rise shall not exceed 40 K[/highlight] (70 "R) above the ambient temperature in the test cell
measured at the time of each reading and (if bearing-temperature sensors are supplied) outer ring
temperatures shall not exceed 93 •c (200 "F).

Notice the highlighted words.

Then going back to testing paragraph you can see that it says:
8.3.4.1 General
• If specified, [highlight #FCE94F]the shop tests described in 8.3 4.2 through 8.3.4.7[/highlight] shall be performed

Hence the mechanical run test is considered as a shop test according to the standard.

I would say unfortunately my supplier has not been a lawyer in his earlier life, because I think a lawyer would understand my reasoning.
Unfortunately their native language is not american english so that does not help me either when I try to explain to them whay I mean.

 

[LittleInch]

I can see all that, but did you specify it?? Every thing else hangs on that.

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[CaracasEC]

Taken from API 610 "A bullet (.) at the beginning of the clause or subclause indicates that either a decision is required or the purchaser is required to provide further information. It is necessary that this information should be indicated on data sheets or stated in inquiry or purchase order".

 

[LittleInch]

brygmann, I can see your point, but it hinges on the fact that you believe that just because you have asked for a "shop test" that anything that mentions "shop test" is then applicable. The pump vendors view is that 6.10.2.4 in respect of testing, only comes into play if you have actually specified the test in 8.3.4.2.1.

Me and caracasEC are saying the same thing - was your data sheet / specification or PO specific enough or have you just specified a "shop test" / run test lasting 4 hours and assumed everything was included??

As I said above, find out what the cost or time impact is if you want it done, offer him half and then make sure you specify it next time....

My motto: Learn something new every day

Also: There's usually a good reason why everyone does it that way

 

[DubMac]

If your problem is real, then listen to Lil Inch's suggestion: negotiate with the guy, get the test done and deliver the pumps. "When the boat is sinking, stop arguing about who put the hole in it and start bailing".

Apparently the manufacturer is being as stubborn as you are and willing to jeopardize future business with your firm in order to win his argument. You both have your points, but the "IF SPECIFIED" language will give your "opponent" an easy loophole to slide through; its been happening for years with API610. You CANNOT win this argument without a great deal of bloodletting.

Unfortunately, too many pump purchasers fall back on the blanket statement "compliance with XYZ spec", assuming it is a hammer they can use against the manufacturer. Remember, pump manufacturers are just as involved in writing industry specs as are the users.

The "Contract is King" is one of the most valuable sayings to remember in this business. No amount of arguing will overturn the requirements of a CLEARLY spelled out PO.

I am sorry for your predicament, but accept the loss and move on. And with respect to the manufacturer in this case:
"Don't get bit by the same dog twice".

 

[brygmann]

Hi again everyone,

Thanks for everyone's input on the case.
I posted this most of all to see if you agreed with me or not. We did of course start to negotiate with the supplier right away to find a solution. Luckily we have a contract which allows us to "force" through changes, but it's of course a cost question as always. As many engineers we have a fix it attitude, but it would be nice to not pay extra for this

For the record I am fully aware of what the bullet point means, but I still don't agree that we have to specify the temperature checking on this test. As I pointed out earlier I read out from 6.10.2.4 that the temperature check of the bearings is non optional during shop testing. Of course it would have been best for us if we wrote explicit that they had to check the temperature and we are as always learning.

Hopefully someone out there will agree with me, but thanks for everyone help

 

[PumpSmart]

Yes, it not mandatory but API610, but it will be mandatory by your specificaction, datasheet or your description uses on your purchaser order.