Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[swearingen]

Checking back after looking into it a little...

I did a half lap of the peripheral states just to do a comparison and here's what I came up with:

Florida, Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, Texas, Arizona, and Oregon, like Louisiana, define an engineer as one that must be registered in that state.

New Mexico, Washington, and Idaho define an engineer the way California does, but then they also define a Professional engineer as one that must be registered in that state.

It clearly depends on where you are, but we're at a 2 to 1 ratio so far...


If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm

 

[IRstuff]

And, if you read down to 6747 in the California code, engineers in industrial corporations are exempt from the licensure requirements, except for civil engineers, which means that everything I have on my business card is legal.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[BRGENG]

Maybe I should clarify my post since some are having a hard time with it. Can you call yourself an Engineer if you have not passed the P.E. exam? Yes, I think we all call ourselves Engineer's after we graduate.

Can you call yourself a Professional Engineer (or Registered Engineer) if you have not passed the P.E. exam? No, at least not in any State I do business.

Does pass the P.E. make you a better Engineer? No. I’ve seen idiots pass and great engineer’s fail.

I never thought once about not taking the P.E. exam and becoming a licensed Engineer. Why do so many not do it in the industrial field? What is the down side? All I can see is a positive.

Why do many Engineers not want to protect the term “Engineer”. Does not seeing “sanitary engineer” or “sales engineer” or “network engineer” not piss you off. Do you not care about our profession or want it to be a licensed profession?

I see all these posts about “How can we increase are fees?”. The first step is to regulate our profession so not just anyone can call themselves and engineer and dilute the meaning of our Profession. By no means are Engineer’s viewed the same today as we once were in the past. I don’t think this is because of degreed Engineer’s not taking an exam but by all of us not standing up to non-engineer’s using Engineer in their title’s or business names. I applaud States that require a P.E. to be on staff to use Architect or Engineer in their name or to offer those services.

Hopefully I have stated that clearly enough that having passed a PE doesn’t make you a better Engineer.

Mac2000, the difference between me having a P.E. and you not having a P.E. is legally I can do everything you do. Legally, you can not do everything I do. Before you say that I can’t do Electrical design because I am a Structural guy just remember that I also have a EE degree and passed the EE exam, CE exam, SE1 and 2 exam. Being proud that you are a licensed Engineer does not make you arrogant. No more than you are a better Engineer because you passed the P.E. exam.

 

[swearingen]

IRstuff -

Unless you offered your services to the public...

I think BRGENG summed it up the best - star for you.


If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm

 

[vc66]

BRGENG-

Good Synopsis.

I agree with everything you said.

Star for you.

V

 

[IRstuff]

Why do many Engineers not want to protect the term "Engineer". Does not seeing "sanitary engineer" or "sales engineer" or "network engineer" not piss you off. Do you not care about our profession or want it to be a licensed profession?

The current US laws do not restrict such usage, so it machts nichts. I don't see that licensing every engineer makes much sense, since there are probably 3 million engineers that have never had to stamp a drawing in their careers.

I see all these posts about "How can we increase are fees?". The first step is to regulate our profession so not just anyone can call themselves and engineer and dilute the meaning of our Profession. By no means are Engineer's viewed the same today as we once were in the past. I don't think this is because of degreed Engineer's not taking an exam but by all of us not standing up to non-engineer's using Engineer in their title's or business names. I applaud States that require a P.E. to be on staff to use Architect or Engineer in their name or to offer those services.

I don't see the argument here. A "sanitation engineer" isn't competing for your fees, so that has no bearing on the subject. Again, if every engineer were licensed, your fees would go DOWN, not UP, because every engineer who currently has industrial exemption would be able to compete against you. The reason doctors make money is not because of licensing; it's because of scarcity. There are not enough doctors to go around. There's a 2x salary differential for doctors in Kansas vs. Los Angeles precisely because of scarcity. Licensing more engineers reduces scarcity and will drive DOWN fees.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[BRGENG]

The reasons Doctors make more money is because they don’t have an Architect shopping their fees. They are not a sub consultant to the owner. They don’t negotiate their fees.

The majority of engineer’s make a good living, the majority of industrial engineer’s work for a company where some MBA sets their salary. Many MEP and Structural Engineer’s contract through Architects who look for the lowest bid because it increases their profits. Are bridge projects are very profitable because we don’t have an Architect trying to keep 80% of the fee. Our Civil projects are very profitable. Our specialty structural projects are extremely profitable because not very many people can do it. Our typical building projects are not profitable because we compete with one man shops working out of their basement and care less about our industry by charging rates well below what we should be paid.

Have you ever gone to a Doctor and ask him what he charges per hour? Have you ever sent 3 doctors proposals for your surgery and selected the low bid? I would guess no to all of these questions. You probably find the best Doctor for your case and let him do his thing. I’ve never heard of someone telling a doctor, hey I would really like you to do my heart surgery but this other guy can do it for 20% less. Can you match his fee?

Doctor’s still have respect that many Engineering Professions have lost. Because they have protected their profession, because they require everyone to be licensed and because they as a group have marketed better than engineers.

My office only employees PE with Master Degrees or Higher. Clients never have to worry about an Intern designing their building. We have high standards and we have high fees. But our clients pay these because they know they have an expert, they will never have a call end with “Let me check with the Engineer of record and call you back”, at a jobsite our guys have final say and don’t have to check in, and more importantly our clients don’t have headaches when they hire us.

Would you use a Doctor that has a degree but was never licensed or a lawyer that could not pass the bar exam? Why use an engineer that is not licensed?

 

[IRstuff]

As for titles, there are Rug Doctors, Pool Doctors, and Car Doctors. Are these guys licensed?



TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[steve1]

I've gone back and reread this thread from the beginning. This is what I learned.

PE's think everyone should get their license.

Non PE's think that licenses are not necessary.

As a PE I have come to the conclusion that it's time to end the industrial exemption, or as a minimum tighten up the rules concerning this exemption as to many people are using this rule to avoid taking the PE exam.

 

[TheTick]

PE's think everyone should get their license.

Non PE's think that licenses are not necessary.

As with most sweeping generalizations, this one is wrong.

 

[ewh]

The doctor comparison is a red herring. Doctors require doctorate degrees, not bachelor degrees.
Then the same fallacious arguments appear; would you let a doctor of philosophy remove your appendix? Does a doctor of chemistry deserve to be called "doctor"?

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[steve1]

I based my comments on what was posted on this subject. I did not find a single post that was contrary to my "sweeping generalizations". I stand by my conclusions. I guess that this is the classic "failure to communicate" situation.

 

[TheTick]

I am not a PE. I have never said licenses are not necessary.

 

[EddyC]

The case of the person identified in the OP is not clear cut. He is working as an expert consultant rather than a temporary worker. By the letter of many state laws, he would have to be licensed. However, the industries that he serves are mostly manufacturing. Manufacturing is international in nature and not state specific, like a building or piece of infrastructure. As such, it is not really feasible for someone in such an industry to pursue state licensure. California, for example, has recognized this situation and grants license exemption to those who consult in regard to manufactured products. Most likely other states have lagged behind on this issue and their laws are "behind the times". But in any event, licensure is legally only required for a small percentage of engineers. Others (like myself) get it as a credential.

BRGENG, Your view of medicine is from a generation ago. Insurance companies (and business type doctors/administrators) have made the lives of regular doctors a nightmare. After the war stories I have heard from doctor friends, I have concluded that engineers (PE or not) are far more professional than folks in the medical field.

 

[Timelord]

steve1,

How about me. I passed the P.E. exam and carried a license for years. I let it lapse after a couple of decades because I never used it once and the renewal fees just kept growing. Am I an engineer? I call myself one and every time I apply for a job, I hold myself out to be an engineer to the community. My business card says engineer and when asked, I tell people "I am an engineer." I guess I don't fit your generalization because I don't see the necessity for a license if you never are required to stamp anything.

Timelord

 

[JLSeagull]

What state Timelord? The legal issues are state law dependent.

 

[zdas04]

While waiting for a document (that coincidentally requires a PE stamp) to print, I just read this thread from top to bottom and I have some generalizations:
[li]Everyone actively participating in the discussion holds essentially the same opinions at the end of the thread as they held at the beginning.[/li]
[li]The closest I've found to dialog is someone rips a phrase out of context into a quote-box and attacks it[/li]
[li]The horse really was dead 85 posts ago[/li]

I just wish that people this passionate about licensure would get actively involved with NCEES and try to get some of their dearly-held beliefs incorporated into the process instead of bitching to the choir.

David

 

[BrunoPuntzJones]

In an attempt to say something productive, I will asnwer a question asked by BRGENG a few posts back:

"I never thought once about not taking the P.E. exam and becoming a licensed Engineer. Why do so many not do it in the industrial field? What is the down side? All I can see is a positive."

The downsides I see:

-It costs money.
-I have never worked with an engineer in my field who had a PE.
-Given the last point, how am I supposed to complete the "apprenticeship" portion of the licensure requirement?
-Would I be exposing myself to any additional liability if I were registered(this one I don't know, but it seems to me it [should][/i] be true)?

And (for my situation only) I don't see a single positive.

Just for the record, I think the PE is completely necessary and seems to function well for some engineering fields (particularly anything related to buildings). And I absolutely agree that (since I am not licensed) I am not a Professional Engineer. But I am an engineer.

Give me a licensing process that is applicable to my field and accepted by my peers and I will gladly participate.

 

[steve1]

Can someone forward this discussion to NCEES and NSPE?

 

[drawoh]

BRGENG,

The term "Professional Engineer", and the acronyms "PE", and "PEng" are legally protected. Is it really necessary to protect the term "Engineer" as well?

JHG