Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[HgTX]

I see any kind of licensure, certification, etc. as a way of weeding out the very worst, but no guarantee of anything better than mediocrity. If someone really can't pass the PE exam, there's a problem. (Maybe a previously undiagnosed learning disability unrelated to their job performance, but some kind of problem at any rate.) If someone did pass the PE exam, they're not necessarily a stellar engineer.

I feel the same way about contractor certifications for various tasks. We have a lot more trouble in areas where there is no certification available, but that doesn't mean we're trouble-free where certifications can be required.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Ron]

Hg...well said. I agree completely.

Ron

 

[BRGENG]

It sounds as if many of the “exempt” engineers design part of a system but not the whole thing. Like a piece for NASA or Ford or maybe a gear for a Maytag dryer. I have a relative that does the same thing. No degree, no schooling beyond High School, yet he regularly designs parts and methods to manufacture them for the same clients “exempt” engineers work for. I would guess that he does the same type of work and probably for a smaller fee. If a P.E. was required or at least an Engineering degree he would not be able to do this. But since “exempt” engineers see no need for licensing the can share their workload with him. Work that they spent $1000’s in College tuition learning to do yet they don’t seem to care and protect their profession to keep a high school graduate from doing their job.

Now I figure there are many more people like my relative in the “exempt” engineering industry. I have yet to see a non-engineer sign and seal a set of plans.

I guess I shouldn’t really care about the “exempt” portion of Engineering since they could never compete with me without getting their license first. I can compete against them if I decided to do so. Why not protect your profession and livelihood. Is taking another test really that big of a deal. Is it because when you started in your industry no one above you had a PE and therefore never pushed for you to get one. I am really just curious why you wouldn’t do it, besides the often heard “ We don’t need it, we are exempt”.

 

[IRstuff]

So, why am I so interested in a job that a high-school grad can actually do that I force engineers to do these jobs? From an economic perspective, why wouldn't I hire such a person to do that job under a PE's supervision and bill at the higher rate and pocket the difference?

What sort of "protection" is that? Frankly, if a high-school grad can actually do my job, then I'm really not doing much engineering, am I? Or maybe that the true reason for proposing all this "protection" is to prevent the public from realizing that high-school grads could to these jobs, and there's really no good reason to pay our high salaries?

It's rather ironic that many of the people who would spit on union shops seem to think that PE shops are a good thing.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[spongebob007]

"I can compete against them if I decided to do so."

...and you are kidding yourself if you actually believe your P.E. will some how give you an advantage or higher salary in an exempt industry.

Companies are not in the habit of simply throwing money at people just because they have some qualification that is not needed for the job. In fact I could see instance where you would be passed over because the manager would see P.E. on your resume, and simply assume you would be looking for higher pay than a non P.E.

Sure it makes me angry that there are non-degreed folks out there using the title "Engineer" in exempt industries, but there really isn't much I can do about it. What I did instead of getting the P.E., I went to graduate school. This sets me apart from the unwashed masses, and, unlike the P.E., my Masters is something that has led to better job opportunities and higher pay. A high school graduate couldn't do my job.

It is my opinion that if we tried to force the P.E. requirement on exempt industries across the board that corporate America would not go down without a fight. If we all had to be licensed, our companies would finally be forced to pay us what we are worth. That would not sit well with too many greedy CEOs.

 

[IRstuff]

"If we all had to be licensed, our companies would finally be forced to pay us what we are worth"

Yes, and you would be worth exactly the same, because all potential applicants for your job would have the identical qualification, thereby setting you no higher on the worth scale.

As I have pointed out, the reason PE salaries are higher are specifically because there's a scarcity of PE's. If everyone became a PE, the scarcity would disappear, and the salary differential, likewise.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[EddyC]

The reason that manufacturing companies have an exemption is because their products are sold worldwide. The PE would have to become international in nature to be applicable to a manufacturing company.

 

[spongebob007]

IR,

In my experience, PE salaries are only higher for jobs where it is required. Your mileage my vary.

EddyC,
I was thinking the same thing. Unless there was a reciprocal agreement, does that mean if there were no exemptions, I would need to be licensed everwhere the products I design are sold?

 

[IRstuff]

There's nothing in the PE code that mentions global vs. local industries.

Reciprocity certainly does not exist for doctors. I met a 60-yr Croatian doctor interviewing for residency in the US, because his medical license from Croatia is not recognized here.

"PE salaries are only higher for jobs where it is required" True, but if every, otherwise qualified, engineer were licensed, then there would be no discriminators, and any engineer could moonlight from his previously exempt day job to take on PE work. That could potential double or triple the number of PEs vying for previously PE-only jobs, which would drive the rates down.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JAE]

IRstuff,

I don't know what a "PE Code" is.

In the US each state has engineering practice laws that govern the practice of...engineering. These only apply to the practice within the states and I'm sure various countries have similar statutes.

EddyC,
The reason that there is an industry exemption is, I think, due to the fact that engineers working within a company that produces objects for sale, such as vehicles, equipment, tools, machinery, etc., all sell those objects to buyers and such objects usually carry some form of warranty, UL testing or other such qualifiers that protect the public. But you are right - how could you manage engineer X when he/she designs a motor and it gets sold in a country other than the source country? Tough to do unless we get ourselves a ONE WORLD GOV'T. gasp.

I'm a licensed PE and SE and feel that engineers have lost a LOT of ground over the years in terms of our worth, public respect, value to society, etc. This may be due to external causes or our own fault, I don't know.

But I don't believe getting every dang "engineer" licensed, even in industrial cases where they design widgits, would help our engineering profession. I don't know what will help it actually, but licensing everyone doesn't seem to me to do much other than cause a lot of problems.

 

[IRstuff]

Sorry, PE ACT:

http://www.pels.ca.gov/licensees/pe_act.pdf

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[msquared48]

Are you a PE if you don't make a pass at an Engineer?

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[hokie66]

Go to bed, Mike.

 

[msquared48]

Man I slept well!

Mike McCann
MMC Engineering

 

[FeX32]

5 hours of sleep is surely not enough.

Fe

 

[Ron]

IRStuff..one slight disagreement. If all exempt engineers were licensed, they would not all be on the same level and therefore not discriminators.

On the licensed side, we are certainly not all the same. The licensing provides a minimum baseline. It doesn't guarantee competence, nor does it guarantee solutions to problems. It does signify that you have decided that your professional stature and bearing is important and that what you do has some bearing on the public good (or bad!), and that you are willing to take on that extra burden and liability. In that respect, licensure to protect the public is a good thing and a necessity (in my opinion). There are many people who can design things. There are many people who understand technical stuff. There are many people who have a narrow perspective of the influence or impact of what they decide or design. That's where an engineering education, and to some degree licensing, helps.

I was a consultant to an industry that produced products with no engineering design. Mostly the designs were done by good ol' boys in their garages. Many of the designs were good and withstood engineering scrutiny. Many of them were dangerous, simply because they only saw the one perspective of use, not the 10 perspectives of misuse. That's what an engineering education teaches you...to think. Licensing teaches you to think twice.

JAE...Bingo

 

[JLSeagull]

Are the Myth Busters registered engineers in California?

 

[EddyC]

My experience has been that whether engineering is done right or not is more a function of the company culture, rather than the holding of any particular credential (High School, BS, MS, PHD, PE, etc) by the employees. Do credentials help? Sure they do, but the culture of the workplace has the greater effect, in my experience.

 

[garpe]

I'll take a chance on beating the moribund equine.
The essence of professionalism is personal responsibility. As a licensed PE I can get in trouble if there is a problem on a project I have done. If i was negligent in some way, or if the judge wants to "spread the pain" I pay. Even if I am not negligent I still have to retain an attorney (basically worthless) and pay exorbitant fees just to fight the claim.
What happens to people who design airplanes that fall apart and kill people? For example the early C-5 wings, the F-111, the De Havilland Comet? Remember? Square windows created stress concentrations that eventually resulted in cracks due to the fatigue loads from repeated pressurization. The cracks propagated and the fuselage ruptured at altitude. I don't recall that an individual was called on the carpet. I guess you can call yourself and engineer but not a "Professional Engineer."

 

[desertfox]

Hi

From my standpoint I would say qualifications are important as they show a level of understanding and intelligence in whatever field you work in,experience also plays a big part in everybodies working enviroment and thats not something you can get in school or college but only with time on the job.
Whether you call yourself an Engineer, Profesional Engineer or whatever you prefer having a title and the highest qualifications one can obtain doesn't guarentee you can do the job any better than someone with lesser qualifications or status, nor does it guarentee the individual will be anymore professional.

desertfox