Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[drawoh]

vc66,

There an the old medical joke.

What do you call the dumbest person to graduate from medical school?

JHG

 

[ewh]

I agree with the analogy, but still understand and agree with vc66's frustration, and like the introduction of a "professional" driver aspect to it.

"Good to know you got shoes to wear when you find the floor." - [small]Robert Hunter[/small]

 

[rbulsara]

I think we all agree on the "professional" part. And as I said I personally believe there is nothing wrong with qualified degreed engineer to call themselves engineers. Just not Professional and they cannot go around offering their services to public.

 

[Apakrat]

After dedicating the time, doing special studies and training, then passing all the tests, does not mean a Licensed Professional Driver has the ability or courage to safely drive an 80 ton big rig in the 60+ mph erratic traffic flows on downtown Dallas freeways.

At 74th year working on IR-One2 PhD from UHK - - -

 

[IRstuff]

That's true of engineers as well, I would think.

However, a truck driver requires an additional bit of licensing, so I, with my standard license, would be breaking the law driving a big rig, regardless of my skill or training.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[JLSeagull]

"...I said I personally believe there is nothing wrong with qualified degreed engineer to call themselves engineers".

(In my best Bill Clinton impersonation) I feel rbulsara's pain.

I have worked with several licensed engineers who seemed to be incompetent; and several non degreed engineers who were well qualified. If I were a degreed engineer I would expect to use "engineer" as a title.

The purpose of the license is to assure a minimum standard of competency with an emphasis on safety. Disfortunamete, some states have administrative statutes that do not permit a degreed engineer to hold herself out to be an engineer unless licensed. Start the process.

 

[rbulsara]

I am in no pain. I have very clear understanding of the purpose and process of PE licensing in the USA. I also believe that that process in Unites States is very fair and logical.

Even when I landed from a foreign country here 21 years ago, and first time I learned about the process, I had no confusion or qualms.

Only complaint I have is PE Lic. renewal fees in my own state, CT which probably is the highest in the country.

 

[JAE]

How much are they?

Texas is up to $270 per year.

 

[rbulsara]

ah TX just beats it then, $225. Compare that to like $20 ?? in OH.

 

[garpe]

NO. I have real problem with someone calling themselves an "Engineer" when they have not a passed a test based on minimum proficiency requirements. Lets get professional guys, no one is going to give us more respect than we have for ourselves. My brother couldn't call himself "M.D." without passing a bunch of tests and going school forever. I feel that no one should be able to call himself an Engineer unless he has passed the EIT and the FE exams.

Greg Robinson

 

[GregLocock]

Oh dear.

Sadly we were calling ourselves engineers, and designing useful things, long before (US) state based trades unions appropriated the term.

You are, of course, welcome to invent a new term for yourselves. I could give you a suggestion or two.





Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[JLSeagull]

The "commissioning engineers" that I met overseas - offshore had been construction craft technicians promoted to "engineer" without any degree.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Greg,

I did pass a bunch of tests... at University! I passed them week in and week out, which is why Purdue felt fit to offer me a degree in Electrical Engineering. As far as I'm concerned, I'm an engineer, it's some politician-slanted engineer-wanna-be somewhere that decided I needed to pass even more tests to "properly" use the term "Professional Engineer". I'm an EE, and I have sense enough not to try and design a bridge, but I shouldn't be looked upon as highly as someone who holds a PE? Why? So he passed another test, but he didn't necessarily take any more schooling or learn anything new for it. I can understand a PhD being looked upon with more respect than some like me with only an MS... the PhD took more classes than me, he has done more research than me, he has learned more than me! But I simply cannot accept an MS who took one more exam (the PE) to be more respectable than any other MS... it's silly.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[TheTick]

macgyvers2000:
Here's another quiz for you...

What are the requirements to sit for the PE in your state?

Can you sit for the PE with zero experience?

Can you sit for the PE with zero recommendations from other PEs?

When you and your peers took tests in college, did you have appropriate experience to put your new knowledge into appropriate context to practice engineering in a meaningful way?

 

[vc66]

garpe-

You're right... we better tear down all those bridges built in the US before 1900 because they weren't built by PE's; therefore they must be faulty.

Is it cold and lonely up there on your pedestal?

V

 

[steve1]

Some random comments:

The difference between a PE and a non PE is legal liability. The PE has someting to lose (his/her PE license)if there is a problem.

State licensing boards routinely discipline engineers. Who does that to non PE's?

The PE has to abide by an ethical code. What ethical code do non PE's subscribe to?

The building codes list responsibilties for the "design professional". It does not list responsibilities for unlicensed designers.

The mere act of affixing one's seal to a document causes most PE's to reflect on the responsibilty associated with that act.

Most PE's have never said, "I'm not the engineer. I didn't stamp the drawings. Don't blame me".

 

[FeX32]

Interesting comments.
Here is something to add.
When I graduated I went through what we call "The Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer" aka. "Iron ring ceremony".
Whereby, we swore an oath based on ethics to serve the public to the best of our abilities ethically (to put it simply).
I believe we all try to use our abilities to best serve society in a good way. But, does this really mean that we are able to without proper experience? I guess this is another story.




Fe

 

[JLSeagull]

Have you ever seen a resume' reflecting something like BSEE from a diploma mill? I have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_London_School_explosion

Texas enacted the Texas Engineering Practice Act after the New London school explosion in 1937. The explosion was not the fault of a degreed engineer. Texas was not the first state to license engineers. However, many states enact such laws to protect the citizens from incompetent engineers.

 

[JAE]

But I simply cannot accept an MS who took one more exam (the PE) to be more respectable than any other MS... it's silly.

Now who's really being silly here. I agree with TheTick on this one.

Just because you came out of university with a degree does not make you an engineer. Most all on this site would agree that most of us coming out of college possesed a great box of tools but had little idea how to apply them to real world problems.

The making of an engineer is not the degree, but the experience under an experienced engineer. The degree just provides the basic foundation.

I agree that there are many....many...good folks who perhaps don't have a degree, haven't passed a PE exam, etc. that are damn good designers, techs,...or I'll go on to say "engineers".

I've seen a lot of folks practicing engineering with and without the PE exam that are downright ignorant of basic engineering concepts and are dangerous to the public. So I see no problem with a government making an attempt to filter out some (never all of them of course) less-than-competent individuals. It's not a perfect filter, but its better than nothing.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

What are the requirements to sit for the PE in your state?

Can you sit for the PE with zero experience?

Can you sit for the PE with zero recommendations from other PEs?

When you and your peers took tests in college, did you have appropriate experience to put your new knowledge into appropriate context to practice engineering in a meaningful way?

Here's one for you:

Two engineers graduate from the same school, same class, and work in the same department at the same company for 10 years. They learn roughly the same things and work on the same types of projects. One decides to sit for the PE exam, one doesn't. They both apply for the same position at a new company. Shall we take a guess as to who will be hired?

They are both obviously very qualified individuals who have plenty of experience (practically the same, mind you), but the PE will win out almost every time. Why? Because he took a test, not because he's any better.

I'm also not a fan of the apparent boys club that's created when a current PE has to vouch for another wishing to become one. What if the new guy is just a complete arsehole with no people skills? He's probably not going to get too many current PEs backing him up, but he may be a damn fine engineer, one now stuck with no one to back him.

While I will concede the PE test shows a minimum level of capability, couldn't one easily argue that's what a university degree does? But PEs have to pay yearly dues and license fees to get/keep their license, again with no guaranteed capabilities beyond those of a university student with experience. That smacks of organized extortion by the state. "Don't pay us protection fees and you're out of business, buddy."


Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com