Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[MacGyverS2000]

JAE,

I didn't mean to suggest a green grad with no work experience... sorry about that...

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[JAE]

macgyvers2000,

You make good points - but I think one difference in education vs. PE exam is that the PE exam is testing for different things. At least all the 4 exams I've taken (PE, SE-1, SE-2) have tested for application of engineering principles while all the university exams were testing for understanding of principles.

As for references (good-ole-boy club), exams (imperfect filters), and government review boards (occasional unequal treatment between applicants), I think I'd agree that there is a level of "silliness" to use your term in it all.

But I think despite all that, as an engineer, I'd prefer to try to filter out some of the weeds to maximize the wheat.

Winston Churchill once said that democracy was the worst form of government....except for all the other forms. I think PE exams are similar - they are perhaps the worst way to determine if someone is an engineer...except for all the other ways to verify qualifications.

 

[TheTick]

My main point is that anyone who spews that the PE is just another exam is ignoring the fact that one must first qualify to take the exam. Qualifications in most states consist of education, relevant experience, and references.

My only qualifications to get into engineering school were a high school diploma, a good SAT score and a check.

 

[jsummerfield]

I cannot open an internet site for Purdue, Texas Tech or MIT and verify that you are an engineering graduate in good standing. However, many states post a roster of all engineers licensed in that state.

http://www.tbpe.state.tx.us/downloads.htm#roster

John

 

[rbulsara]

Anyone who is in doubt as to what a PE licensing entails, go to

http://www.NCEES.org

or website of a stated licensing board and print out its application form and see what relevant data and references are required.

As many said before it is much more than just an exam and educational credentials.

To name a few, it requires:
Transcript directly from the educational institution.
Evaluation of credit if not from an accredited institution.
References from past employers, all of them unless you have a good reason not to have it.
References of at least five (5) PEs who knows you and your character.
Details of type of work you have done.
Some states requires samples of your work.
Continuing education and professional development to be able to renew the licenses

Plus passing the exams and even oral interview in some states.

Therefore, besides the statutory requirement to register to "practice", a PE license is a much more powerful credential to employer or prospective employers that they need not verify from other means.

 

[EddyC]

Within the confines of your employer's office, if you are doing engineering, you are an engineer (with or without a PE). The title, as regulated by the various states, applies when you are out in public, or offering your services directly to the public. Remember that most of us are employees who are working for established companies, either PE exempt or with Certificates of Authorization, if not exempt. Under such working conditions, you are not required to be licensed. That covers about 95% of us. (Speaking as a USA resident)

 

[garpe]

I'm not on my pedestal, maybe a soap box. It's true that we have become over-regulated because the states and the various boards seem to have nothing better to do. If I seal something in FL I have to make sure that specific, state approved text is near my seal stating that my drawings comply with the FL building codes. How stupid can you get???
But we live in a different world than 100 years ago. Engineers were among the most educated citizens. There was a self-screening affect. I don't doubt that the the engineers of the past, like Roebling, could have blown away the current exams. Today engineering is treated as a commodity and we have let it happen.
I am not a commodity, I am a qualified professional with specialized knowledge. I doubt if the attorneys or doctors have similar arguments. If you practice law or medicine in any setting, corporate or individual, you have to pass exams based on minimum qualifications. I gotta get back to work.

 

[BRGENG]

I think we can all agree that we know people with engineering degrees that may be better engineers than people how have passed the PE exam. But only one of them is a Licensed PE and in most if not all states can call themselves an Engineer.

Even though they above is true I am so tired of people calling themselves Engineer’s that did not pass the test. If you think your good enough to be called an Engineer then sign up and take the test. If not you can just use EIT after your name assuming you passed that exam.

 

[FeX32]

Fe

 

[MacGyverS2000]

Even though they above is true I am so tired of people calling themselves Engineer's that did not pass the test. If you think your good enough to be called an Engineer then sign up and take the test.

Isn't that like saying "Why do you care if the government reads your mail or tracks your every movement... if you aren't guilty, you have nothing to hide, right?" If an employee of mine came to work with that arrogant of an attitude that he was better than me because he took a test, I'd boot him on his ear as early as convenient. God knows how he's treating my customers who don't have a PE but still need our advice.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[steve1]

In the end it really doesn't matter what you or I think. It's what the law requires that counts.

Currently structural engineers and other "design professionals" have specific, code mandated responsibilities that can only be accomplished by "Professional Engineers". During my career I have see this PE requirement expanded and I suspect that it will continue to do so. I would advise any engineer to obtain their PE as sooner or later they will need it to advance to the level where they are reconized by the authority having juristriction.

Numerours engineers work in fields where the building code and its PE requirements are not normally applicable. Are those people engineers-yes. Are they professional engineers as regulated by the various states-no.

Problems arise when those who work in industries that are not normally required to "stamp their work" provide products or services to those projects that are under control of the building code.

I don't have a solution so I guess I'l just end this.

 

[rbulsara]

macgyvers:

1. How did you reach a conclusion as to anyone saying PEs are better than you? or for that matter how did you decide your are better than anyone else?. PE licensing is not for proving anyone better than others. It is a matter of obtaining a "permit" required by law to allow you to "practice". You can have Masters and PhDs, you still require the permit or the license.

2. What is the relationship between a PE licensing and the privacy rights? as you are tying to relate in your last post?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

How did you reach a conclusion as to anyone saying PEs are better than you?

Read BRGENG's quote... that pretty much states I'm not as good as someone who has taken the PE exam. I'm not good enough unless I take the exam? Poppycock...

What is the relationship between a PE licensing and the privacy rights? as you are tying to relate in your last post?

Arguably not the best of analogies, but I doubt you honestly thought I was trying to make that comparison. The point was people believing they're better than others simply because the others haven't taken a test to prove it is illogical and smacks of elitism.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[rbulsara]

macgyvers:

The bottom line, the respect is not something you can demand, it needs to be earned. Just having degrees does not earn you respect. Look around the most admired people in the world and compare their credentials.

Whether or not you like it, it is 'YOUR' perception that PE's are give more credence, perhaps you should trust your own conclusion. None of us PEs here demanded or conspired to get that respect. Over the years, mostly due to the good work of many before us, PEs may have gotten the recognition and it may be well deserving. If it is not, overtime it will fade away.

No one is forcing you to get the PE license, if you do not need one it is perfectly all right. Why are you trying to belittle someone having a license that you do not want or need?

 

[MacGyverS2000]

No one is forcing you to get the PE license, if you do not need one it is perfectly all right. Why are you trying to belittle someone having a license that you do not want or need?

I'm not trying to belittle someone who gets one, I'm taking offense to those who feel I shouldn't use the term "Engineer" simply because I haven't taken a test. I worked hard in school and I work hard in my career... to tell me I can't label myself an Engineer because of that seems arrogant.

Dan - Owner

http://www.Hi-TecDesigns.com

 

[rbulsara]

You can call yourself engineer (in most states in the USA) and even work as an engineer in a company or under someone else' technical supervision, you just can't practice as a professional on your own and it is a law. I hope you understand the difference.

If you do not have a PE but your colleagues do, you should not complain about 10% pay difference either.

 

[IRstuff]

The only reason there is a pay differential is because the majority of the 1.5 million engineers in the US are NOT licensed.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[swearingen]

I disagree with you, mcgyvers2000.

How many hard working nurses with tons of experience, extra schooling, and practical knowledge can run circles around a newly minted doctor? I'll bet more than you can comprehend.

Can they call themselves doctors?

How many "legal professionals" that have been working in the business for years, preparing for cases, learning the law and taking extra classes can whip a wet-behind-the-ears lawyer? Again, I'll bet more than you know.

Can they call themselves lawyers?

I know those two examples are stretches, but what about this one: Can a person who has taken all of the classes, passed them, done the dissertation, but failed to show up for the defence call himself/herself a PhD?

Naturally, the answer is no to all three. Unfortunately, it is NOT a question of your actual abilities relative to others that have the title. It is a quesion of whether you have earned the title. Part of earning that title, legally, is completing the list of items rbulsara outlined earlier, one of which is a test. You can call it elitism, or anything you want - but in most states, I can legally hang a shingle outside my house and offer engineering services and you can't. This doesn't mean you are not adept at engineering or are less endowed between the legs. It just means you're not able to legally represent yourself to be an engineer, just as my examples above can't call themselves doctors, lawyers or PhDs.


If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm

 

[IRstuff]

6747. Exemption for industries
(a) This chapter, except for those provisions that apply to civil engineers and civil engineering, shall not apply to the performance of engineering work by a manufacturing, mining, public utility, research and development, or other industrial corporation, or by employees of that corporation, provided that work is in connection with, or incidental to, the products, systems, or services of that corporation or its affiliates.
(b) For purposes of this section, “employees” also includes consultants, temporary employees, contract employees, and those persons hired pursuant to third-party contracts.

Employees of industrial companies that are otherwise qualified ARE ENGINEERS per this exemption in the California Professional Engineers Act.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[swearingen]

Actually, the applicable portion of the Professional Engineers Act of California is "6701. Professional engineer defined":

"'Professional engineer,' within the meaning and intent of this act, refers to a person engaged in the professional practice of rendering service or creative work requiring education, training and experience in engineering sciences and the application of special knowledge of the mathematical, physical and engineering sciences in such professional or creative work as consultation, investigation, evaluation, planning or design of public or private utilities, structures, machines, processes, circuits, buildings, equipment or projects, and supervision of construction for the purpose of securing compliance with specifications and design for any such work."

WOOHOO! I just learned that I am a Professional engineer in the state of California! Of course, apparently so is every other hack with a degree and a couple of years under his or her belt. It seems Cali's law is a little loose...

Louisiana state law, Chapter 8, 37:682. Definitions, (4):

"'Engineer' or 'professional engineer' shall mean an individual who, by reason of his special knowledge and ability to apply the mathematical, physical, and engineering sciences and the principles and methods of engineering analysis and design, acquired by an engineering education and engineering experience, is qualified to practice engineering, AS EVIDENCED BY HIS LICENSURE AS SUCH BY THE BOARD." <emphasis mine>

It is my understanding that most states (as I stated in my previous post) follow this definition. I'm going to personally look into it, though...



If you "heard" it on the internet, it's guilty until proven innocent. - DCS

http://www.eng-tips.com/supportus.cfm