Are You An Engineer If You Don't Pass The P.E.? 31

[drawoh]

"Illinois case worries engineering organizations."

Here is the article in Design News. Is this safe to post, or has the subject been flogged to death?

JHG

 

[garpe]

YO zdas04:
Be careful. I think you have to seal and sign everything you produce. Check your states regs. The fact is we live in an era where the registration boards are instituting what I consider to be foolish "gothca" type regulations. They must not have much to do. I am registered in a bunch of states including Florida. When I seal and sign documents for work in that state I have to add a notation on each sheet that "These drawings conform to the Florida building Code" or some such foolishness as that. This is another instance where our "professional societies" do not have the gonads to stop this silly stuff. It also gives the attorneys another avenue to go after us since if a problem comes up we can now be accused of making fraudulent statements. Where is ASCE and NSPE on this? Oh, they are kissing off Obama for "stimluation", I forgot.

Greg Robinson

 

[JLSeagull]

I rarely seal documents. The sealing requirements are based upon the state board, client or contractor standards. Civil/structural engineers stamp many drawings. Several years pass between my need to stamp a document. Safety is the key criteria that determines whether a document requires a stamp.

 

[IRstuff]

Ron, that was my point exactly. The pay, prestige, eliteness, etc. are contingent on most engineers NOT being PEs.

I do have one slight disagreement, "That's what an engineering education teaches you...to think." An engineering education MIGHT teach you to solve problems, but to "think" is a wholly different thing.

And not every engineering student learns to solve problems the same way; a certain Leslie learned to solve math and engineering problems by having her boyfriend do them. ;-)

Moreover, even MS and PhD engineers aren't immune from tunnel vision. I've seen an invention disclosure that claimed to eliminate a certain type of noise by selectively eliminating the "bad" ones. How to deal with the fact that the overall signal to noise was decreased by a factor of 4 was ignored.

I think that disclaimers about conformance to "Florida building code" and the like make sense, given the ease of transporting documents to other localities and states. If such a document weren't marked, and it got used in, say, California, while you would eventually prevail in a lawsuit, having that stamped stipulation would probably get your part of the case tossed before you incurred a lot of legal fees.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[KENAT]

garpe, the Comet case is an oft quoted but sometimes misunderstood case. As I recall in the initial design the Designing Engineers (most of whome had almost certainly come up from starting as Draftsmen or the like not gone to university and got a bachelors) designed and tested the airframe for cyclic stresses caused by pressurization.

However, to achieve this they'd used some kind of bonding process for the windows. This process was difficult/time consuming in production. So, the manufacturing/production guys asked for a change to conventional riveted structure.

I'm not sure who OK'd the decision withouth re-testing etc but it is they that arguably deserve the blame.

As to a consequence, well I'd say the massive contraction of the British Aerospace industry was at least in part related to this issue. Essentially the company faces the consequences/liability, if they pass that on to the relevant engineer insome way (dismissal, limited promotion etc.) is up to them.

Plus on at least some of the A/C it wasn't actually the windows that caused the problem, it was cut-outs for the ADF.

The lesson I learnt for this is don't forgo critical function in lieu of ease of manufacture. While expensive but functional equipment will face problems, non functional items no matter how cheap, seldom prevail.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[JLSeagull]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/6439923.html

 

[buzzp]

Nothing has changed here, has it?

You are an Engineer whether you passed a PE exam or not. If you went to an accredited college (or even not) and are active in a real engineer role, you are an engineer.

The question should be, should all engineers be required to be licensed?

Most PE guys doing consulting work or otherwise working for the public don't typically understand product design and the engineers role in this. We don't work for the public, we design products for our company. We have safety agencies overlooking our products just like they do theirs. It is not required in the US, but most businesses will not buy your product without safety agency approvals like UL and CSA (Make this a requirement if anything). When was the last time you heard of a UL listed product starting a fire? When was the last time you heard of a catastrophic building or electrical fire due to poor engineering by a licensed PE? My point is made. In many other industrialized nations it is a requirement and it is called the CE mark.

It is not a question of if us product designers are engineers, it is a question if we should be required to be licensed? My vote is NO! This will simply move even more engineering jobs over seas that do NOT have this requirement. Have some common sense in this area! Licensure will drive up salaries and cause companies to export more engineering jobs to other countries. Of course, some are set on the demise of the US even further.

Why fix what is not broke?

 

[Ron]

buzzp...how many examples of UL listed items causing fires would you like; or how many building collapses due to inadequate engineering would you like. There are more than enough of both.

You say that licensure will drive up salaries...of course it does. It is supposed to do that. In every category of licensed professional engineers that's what we strive for as the FIRST mark in our career....licensure.

This topic gets debated over and over in the forums, with similar arguments for and against, each time. Those who are in "exempt" engineering disciplines don't want licensure, while those who are in non-exempt engineering disciplines welcome licensure. Just as you would want your medical doctor to be licensed by the state, you would want an engineer practicing in the public to be licensed.

Does licensure guarantee performance? Of course not. It signifies a baseline of qualifications and competence in a set of technical areas. It is rigorous enough that it weeds out some who should not practice in those disciplines. Does it guarantee that the engineer will always make the correct professional judgment? No. But it does establish penalties for an engineer who makes poor judgment. That alone is a deterent to negligent practice.

To answer the original question, yet again....If you are in a discipline of engineering that requires licensing and you do not pass the P.E. exam, in most states you cannot call yourself an engineer. Simple, statutory fact. It is against the law.

 

[IRstuff]

again, only if you're not exempt...

I think the NSPE needs to read up on the concept of supply and demand. Increase supply of PEs, and the price goes down, not up.

TTFN

FAQ731-376

 

[buzzp]

Your wanting a PE for a job that don't need a PE. It adds cost by way of insurances to the overal cost of a design project. Products already have the major cost over head of safety agency testing and to add on top of this, a requirement to mandate licenses for the designers. Perhaps some need to become more familiar with the design world, costs associated with product testing and keep there snide comments to themselves. This is always what happens with a thread like this.

You said you could provide examples, I would like as many examples of the number of DEATHS caused by each category, engineers designing for the public (eletrical wiring, bridges, buildings, road designs,etc) versus deaths caused by a UL listed product, properly applied. I am guessing you will be surprised.

Everyone keeps referring to most states laws on using engineer in your title without a PE license. Well, I don't put much credit in this given all the sanitation engineers job advertisements at any STATE job service. Wheres the board or the enforcers here? This seems like the logical place to start to me. It is not product design engineers giving engineering a bad name, it is people like this, which cause the general publics perception of what an engineer is or does to be tarnished. I have seen so called co-workers at a company designing industrial equipment being referred to customers as an engineer. The guy worked there for a 3-4 years, did not even know ohms law, and he started thinking he was an engineer. It was a down right dangerous place to work.

The hard liners on this issue are pushing there own agenda, through lack of ignorance on what all of engineering encompasses and is about. Good luck. You can flame me all you want and I am sure you will but I expect nothing less.

 

[Ron]

Buzzp...my apologies if I gave you the impression that I was flaming you. That was not my intent. We have a difference of opinion, but that does not constitute flaming.

Based on statistics from the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the National Center for Health Statistics, there are approximately 240 electrocution deaths per year resulting from the use of tested and listed small and large appliances.

Similarly, there are many examples of deaths related to building, bridge, and structure collapses, some of which are design errors and some of which are construction errors. One significant example is the walkway collapse at the Hyatt Regency Hotel in Kansas City, where 113 people died. I have personally been involved in the evaluation and analysis of structural failures where individuals lost their lives as a result of design errors.

One important point to note here is that for those consumer products that fail and result in a death, the designers usually have no "criminal" liability, but might have civil liability. In the case of a licensed engineer's design causing a death or deaths, the engineer has both a criminal liability and a civil liability. As an example, in the Hyatt Regency walkway collapse, the engineers in responsible charge lost their licenses....they could no longer practice engineering. In cases of product failures where no licensure is required, those engineers could continue to work in their field, unimpeded except for the potential civil liability, which is usually covered by insurance.

The point here is that exempt engineers are not held to the same standards as licensed engineers, with regard to their statutory liability.

As for the costs of testing and having an understanding of such, I have spent the majority of my career in testing and analysis of materials, products, and assemblies, in various capacities from lab and field technician to owner and Engineer in Responsible Charge. I know well the costs and the benefits of testing.

 

[KENAT]

"engineers in responsible charge lost their licenses....they could no longer practice engineering"

However, presumably they could still work within engineering, they just couldn't stamp/seal drawings any more.

If so then it really amounts to a pay cut/demotion/loss of job.

Similar can happen to people that screw up in exempt industries.

Or am I misunderstanding things?

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[Ron]

Kenat...when a licensed engineer loses his license, depending on what position in an organization he holds, it often ruins his career. When such engineers are named and qualifying principals in a firm,they can no longer qualify that firm to practice engineering....they have to regroup.

In some cases it would amount to, as you noted, a demotion of sorts. But when the ability to sign and seal is lost, so is a large part of the value of that person to the organization. No, you don't lose the experience and capability, but those would be second guessed routinely as well. So losing one's ability to sign/seal, plus a loss of confidence in that person's professional judgment, can amount to a loss of career/earning ability.

One misunderstanding about engineering laws is that the only item that requires a seal is a design drawing. Not true. In most states, any engineering evaluation, report, opinion, or other document containing an engineering evaluation, judgment or design, must be signed and sealed by the licensed engineer who offers report or document as the engineer in responsible charge.

 

[KENAT]

Ron, a lot of the same things can happen in the exempt sector though. The engineer that made mistakes is second guessed, loses credibility etc. It may not be as easily measureable/distinct as the loss of PE but happens. Also once you've held a job at a certain level, many places have doubts about hiring you at a significantly lower level even without PE issues.

Within the exempt areas this is probably more significant in the more 'incestuous' industries where everyone knows everyone etc. but still happens.

I know about not just stamping drawings, I nearly put "reports etc." but was trying to keep it short, that'll teach me.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[Ron]

Kenat...you're right, I can see the same things happening in the exempt areas with regard to credibility....and we are all in a somewhat incestuous business community. Someone almost always knows someone who knows someone....word does get around.

I suppose my main point is that the licensed person could never go back to where he was from a professional stature perspective, since he can't get licensed in other states either. I would think, even given the "small world" of our respective professions, that the exempt engineer might have a few more opportunities at restoration than the licensed engineer. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but it just seems that way. Your thoughts?

Ron

 

[KENAT]

As I said, it's probably not quite as obvious/distinct in the exempt world. so recover might be expected to be a bit easier but I'm not sure how much.

KENAT,

Have you reminded yourself of faq731-376 recently, or taken a look at posting policies:

http://eng-tips.com/market.cfm?

What is Engineering anyway: faq1088-1484

 

[MRM]

I've seen many good points on both sides of the argument. I'll tell you that I can genuinely see some of the non-PE points too. And it's been said many times above that licensure doesn't guarantee a good engineer.

The more I read these types of threads, the more I can see that the underlying idea of licensure protecting the public, while adding value to the engineer at the same time seems to be a very mysterious notion to some non-PEs.

However, I can say that once you reflect on how, more than ever in our world, we need to have well-educated individuals who are also willing to take on the responsibility of acting in the best interests of the client, as well as anyone else (the public) who will use your product or design, you somehow begin to understand the necessity of licensure.

Just to add a little to what Ron said, and as a side note, depending on the state, you may not always have to put your stamp on your deliverables. I've noticed a few comments that some seem to be under the impression that you're only responsible for things that you actually stamp with a rubber stamp and ink. This is not true.

In Michigan, I've completed hundreds of reports, and I've never used my stamp yet. It's not necessary in this state. It is necessary, however, that I maintain a valid license in order to sign the types of reports I prepare in this state. Aside: drawings are typically signed and stamped, probably following tradition from way back.

One would not discriminate between my signature and my signature placed over my stamp as they are both the same in the legal world. My signature is all they need to have to know who to call...

 

[Ron]

MRM..you make some good points, particularly about the signature really being the only trigger for liability.

Michigan is a bit of an exception in this regard. Their rules do not mention what items must be signed/sealed...it is left open. Most other states designate items that must bear the engineer's seal, which in my home state, is just about everything you produce, outside administrative correspondence.

For everything I produce in Michigan, I use the same rules I use in my home state...I sign it and seal it with my Michigan seal. The only reason I do this is so that I don't have to remember which states require it and which ones don't!! Saves those few remaining brain cells!

 

[JLSeagull]

Texas recently changed the sealing requirements. "... all engineering documents released, issued, or submitted by or for a registered engineering firm, including preliminary documents, must clearly indicate the engineering firm name and registration number. It is both the responsibility of the PE that signs and seals a document and the firm that releases the document to verify that the firm name and number appear on the engineering work."

From the article mentioned in the original post "Manufacturers are concerned thousands of small companies will have to take the term "engineering" from their company names." Many states prohibit firms from using the word engineering in the company name if the firm is not registered. Enforcement exists for individuals lacking PE registration and the firms lacking registration.

 

[shamsdebout]

This thread is a bit depressing, I have a BSEET, when I pass the PE exam Illinois, Florida and a host of other states will not accept me as an Engineer, that makes no sense to me. I thought the purpose of the PE exam was a guage to ensure competency so if I pass the exam I have proved my competency but I guess they can break the rules they set.

 

[JLSeagull]

With any degree, whether BSEE, BSEET or BA in marketing, if you pass the FE/EIT exam, any P&P exam and demonstrate ethics and increasing responsibility then you are likely to obtain a PE license in most states.