Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6] 17

[Sparweb]

This post is the continuation from this series of previous threads:

thread815-445840
thread815-450258
thread815-452000
thread815-454283
thread815-457125

This topic is broken into multiple threads due to the length to be scrolled, and images to load, creating long load times for some users and devices. If you are NEW to this discussion, please read the above threads prior to posting, to avoid rehashing old discussions.

Thank you everyone for your interest! I have learned a lot from the discussion, too.

Some key references:
Ethiopian CAA preliminary report

Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee preliminary report

A Boeing 737 Technical Site

Washington Post: When Will Boeing 737 Max Fly Again and More Questions

BBC: Boeing to temporarily halt 737 Max production in January

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I don't think there are hydraulic Ng Sims.

Cae have been producing electro actuated Sims since before the Ng was certified.

The older classic 737 Sims are hydraulic.

Apart from anything else I don't think there will be a flight model for macas turned off which they will need. And if they do produce one it will allow people to test the envelope and see what's really wrong with it.

Sims are run by pilots mostly. It's relatively simple to set one up for a training serial. SIM technicians is a different matter. But they tend to have 2-3 of them for a sim hall which can have 10 to 20 of them running 24h

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

And we find out the reason why Boeing now supports the training in simulators.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-5...jngdDWbkwBUTs-mhfxF4AbgtbT4Pjwp0xHjZVkyMdNdNA

"One unnamed employee wrote in an exchange of instant messages in April 2017: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."

https://www.scribd.com/document/442346616/Boeing-Employee-Emails-re-Boeing-737-Max-Simulator-1-of-3?

https://www.scribd.com/document/442346573/Boeing-Employee-Emails-re-Boeing-737-Max-Simulator-2-of-3?

https://www.scribd.com/document/442346585/Boeing-Employee-Emails-re-Boeing-737-Max-Simulator-3-of-3?

If there weren't so many people killed these would be funny.

 

[thebard3]

The floodgates opened this morning. Boeing is deservedly being publicly wire-brushed. They have a big hole to dig themselves out of now.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/09/business/boeing-737-messages.html

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.

 

[VEBill]

One unnamed employee wrote...: "This airplane is designed by clowns who in turn are supervised by monkeys."

They mention disciplining staff...

Who? The unnamed employee(s), the clowns, or the monkeys?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Apparently a new court case is brewing....

The Clowns union is not happy..... And as for the monkeys best not talk about what they are going to do....

 

[Eufalconimorph]

They mention disciplining staff...

Who? The unnamed employee(s), the clowns, or the monkeys?

“The language used in these communications, and some of the sentiments they express, are inconsistent with Boeing values, and the company is taking appropriate action in response. This will ultimately include disciplinary or other personnel action, once the necessary reviews are completed.”

Taking actions against the unnamed employee(s).

 

[waross]

From the perspective of a somewhat informed flying public.
Trust or lack thereof.
Do you, as a member of the general somewhat informed flying public want to avoid flying on the MAX-8?
How do you avoid flying on the MAX 8?
What about re-branding?
Are there any plans to re-brand the MAX 8?

Plenty of observers – among them Donald Trump – have advised Boeing to rebrand the plane before its eventual return to service. The US president tweeted in April: “If I were Boeing, I would FIX the Boeing 737 MAX, add some additional great features, & REBRAND the plane with a new name.”

Boeing 737 Max ordered by Ryanair undergoes name change

And the trust level falls further.
I won't say that I will never fly Boeing or specifically a 737, but avoidance will be diligent.
As long as Boeing persists in trying to address uncertifiable flight characteristics with software patches, "If it's Boeing, I'm not going."
Public avoidance may add additional losses in the future.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[thebard3]

Do you, as a member of the general somewhat informed flying public want to avoid flying on the MAX-8?

A few weeks ago I could have offered a simpler, more definitive answer-- NO(I would not avoid it)!
Today, I'm not sure.
I thought they would have had this figured out by now and the 737 MAX could take it's place as it's iteration in one of the safest and most successful line of passenger jets of all time.

Brad Waybright

It's all okay as long as it's okay.

 

[LionelHutz]

"As long as Boeing persists in trying to address uncertifiable flight characteristics with software patches, "If it's Boeing, I'm not going.""

I guess you'll be avoiding fly by wire planes too then?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

FBW planes may have dodgy flight envelopes, to be honest I don't know if they do or don't I presume some of them do.

Its the fact you have to go down 4 if not 5 failure levels before the pilots have to deal with said dodgy dynamics. And all the computers and systems are certified to a much much higher level. Which means the chances of the pilots ever seeing it in their lifetimes is less than winning euro millions.
Airbus does have a final law which means basically everything is off line. You can still fly the machine straight and level but you can't land it in that mode. Its only there so all the computers can reboot. And to my knowledge since the Airbus FBW system has been out there over all the types its been fitted to, nobody in the real world has been in it out side the simulator. yes there have been crashes the AF477 being the perfect example. But that was purely pilot error completely disregarding the emergency procedures and pulling back on the stick all the way into the sea. There was a heap of factors leading up to this point which could have stopped it before it happened. And this was a first world nation national carrier crew. In fact if the crew had let go of the controls they might have survived.

Max 8 with its Frankenstein FBW fixes, you have one single failure and everything is dumped on the pilot to fly the thing in the uncertifiable envelope. And that goes for the fix as well. Which happened twice in the space of a year. If the crew let go of the controls the aircraft would have just put them into the ground faster.

I won't be going in one either unless there is a drastic change in the design of the flight control system. Eg they move Mcas to an input to the elevator instead of the stab. At least then they can overpower it using the stab if it goes crazy.

Even putting 3 AoA sensors in only gives you 2 layers of protection.

BTW they know who everyone is in these conversations. They are not releasing their names because several people so far who have been named have received death threats. There are also several people on the design teams who's mental health is extremely delicate just now with a few that have tried to commit suicide. Nobody else deserves to die over this stupidity.

 

[Tomfh]

Do you, as a member of the general somewhat informed flying public want to avoid flying on the MAX-8?

Of course. It's a twitchy inbred pit bull that's killed two of its previous handlers. I don't care what muzzle they put on it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

New report out.

Its causing a bit of indignation in some circles.

But to be honest I can't see anything wrong with the key findings and recommendations. There is some sections that just ooze management bullshite bingo talk and trying to stop the clock being rolled back wasting years and millions of dollars of lobbying to get the current situation.

https://www.transportation.gov/sites/dot.gov/files/docs/briefing-room/362926/scc-final-report.pdf

But if they insist on this delegation structure as it is now I can't see anyone else accepting FAA certification. So the machines are going to be certified anyway by the other authorities independently of the FAA. And STC's will only be valid on N reg.

 

[RVAmeche]

That doesn't seem like it'll restore any faith from the international community in the FAA.

 

[moon161]

In nearly all its interviews, the Committee asked a wide range of stakeholders the same two
questions: “If Boeing had applied for a new type certificate for the 737 MAX 8, would it have
made a difference to the level of scrutiny of the aircraft during certification?” and “Would
seeking certification via a new TC have produced a safer aircraft?” The answer from the experts
was consistent; each said a new TC would not have produced more rigorous scrutiny of the 737
MAX 8 and would not have produced a safer airplane. Seeking certification via a new TC would
have required all of the 737 MAX 8 to be certified again—including those parts and systems now
in use in the 737-800 that were previously certified and remained unchanged and unaffected by
changes. However, the Committee concluded that additional consideration of the interface
between the changed item and the rest of the system, as well and the impact of multiple changes
over time, should be required. This includes assessment of their combined effect on the flight
crew’s ability to safely manage operational tasks.

This for me misses the issue. An unsafe aircraft was made because they stretched the 737 design unreasonably to certify and train on an ammendment instead of new type basis.

 

[dik]

Tomfh... "Of course. It's a twitchy inbred pit bull that's killed two of its previous handlers. I don't care what muzzle they put on it."

I'm thinking 30-06...

Dik

 

[waross]

FAA and funding.
At present:
Boeing hires and pays the inspectors.
Why not:
FAA hires and pays the inspectors, and charges Boeing for the expenses?
The big expense may not be so much added administration costs as the added cost of doing it right.
I can't accept the premise that short funding of the FAA is to blame.
Now, Boeing is paying the inspectors directly.
They could just as well be paying the inspectors indirectly through FAA billing.
How much percentage difference to the cost of a 737 would be incurred if the FAA hired the inspectors and billed Boeing for the inspections?
Is this another case of The Boeing System? (BS)


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[RVAmeche]

What you describe (FAA hiring/paying inspectors) was how they operated until relatively recently. I believe the rationale was ultimately agency budget cuts. They assume(hope?) that the Boeing hired/paid inspector will remain impartial and not be beholden to Boeing.

I believe there's even records that Boeing fired/reassigned previous inspectors on the Max project when they started making trouble? I remember seeing that in one of the previous threads.

 

[waross]

Has there been a serious investigation of how a faulty AoA sensor was allowed out of the FAA approved repair facility and the apparently faulty test procedures that were FAA approved?
The FAA seems to have covered that up quite well.
Another blow to the credibility of the FAA.

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Sparweb]

Slow down...
How much more do you want your taxes to go up? How slow do you want developments in technology, and delays in aircraft operations? That's how aviation USED to be.
Ask anyone if they want safer airplanes, they'll say "yes" every time. Ask people if they want to pay more in taxes, they'll say "no" every time (almost). Every time somebody says "the guvvermint should do that!" I hear money whooshing out of my pocket.

Before you suggest that the FAA should employ all the inspectors to keep the companies at bay, just ask yourself how much that would cost, and what it would accomplish.
Same goes for Canada, Europe, and the rest of the world; we all use the licensing and delegation system to assign authority and accountability where it can be supported by people in direct contact with the equipment and skills needed to be effective. You do want the most effective people to be solving problems, right?

I'm not ignoring your point that the system was abused, and that people knew that they could push beyond the acceptable limits of the system of accountability. That's bad. But if one firefighter is caught starting a fire, you don't condemn all firefighters.

It does also degrade the credibility of the FAA, but not really because the FAA let faulty parts for a faulty plane through. It's because they gave credit to people at a company that couldn't act with the level of integrity that they were supposed to, or agreed to when receiving their credentials from the FAA. Which allowed the companies to ignore their own rules and principles. The FAA is supposed to monitor compliance, but they certainly failed in this case. Budget cuts played a role in that. In the past decade, the FAA (like many other parts of the US government administration) have been shut down many times.

There's a broader story about the value of the public service that keeps all the details of a country running, and what goes wrong when they can't do their jobs... perhaps for another time.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[waross]

So the parent agency of the FAA, The Department of Transportation, has produced a political document.

In April of 2019, U.S. Secretary of Transportation,Elaine L. Chao,created the Special Committee to Review the Federal Aviation Administration’s Aircraft Certification Process (the Committee).

Cover Your ASSets bafflalgab.
This is not so much an impartial investigation as a statement of defense of the FAA and the any responsibility of the Department of Transportation for a lack of effective oversight.
I don't think that this report will do anything to bolster the international reputation of the FAA.

"346 people died. And yet, Dennis Muilenburg pressured regulators and put profits ahead of the safety of passengers, pilots, and flight attendants. He'll walk away with an additional $62.2 million. This is corruption, plain and simple," U.S. Senator Elizabeth Warren said on Twitter.

Has there been any recent word on the criminal investigations?

And lest we forget.
Victims of the Etiopian Airlines crash

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter