Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8] 24

[Sparweb]

This post is the continuation from this series of previous threads:

thread815-445840
thread815-450258
thread815-452000
thread815-454283
thread815-457125
thread815-461989
thread815-466401

This topic is broken into multiple threads due to the length to be scrolled, and images to load, creating long load times for some users and devices.
If you are NEW to this discussion, please read the above threads prior to posting, to avoid rehashing old discussions.

Thank you everyone for your interest! I have learned a lot from the discussion, too.

Some key references:
Ethiopian CAA preliminary report (Link from Ethiopia is now broken. See link from NTSB Investigations below)

Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee preliminary report

NTSB Investigations

NTSB Safety Recommendation Report: Assumptions Used in the Safety Assessment Process and the
Effects of Multiple Alerts and Indications on Pilot Performance

A Boeing 737 Technical Site

Washington Post: When Will Boeing 737 Max Fly Again and More Questions

BBC: Boeing to temporarily halt 737 Max production in January

Pulitzer Prize, For groundbreaking stories that exposed design flaws in the Boeing 737 MAX that led to two deadly crashes and revealed failures in government oversight.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[TenPenny]

Part 8 is appropriate, since it appears Boeing is now referring to it as the 737-8 not MAX8.

An attempt at rebranding, hoping people don't connect the old and the new, I suppose.

 

[waross]

I thought that there was talk of rebranding early on and that Boeing stated at that time that it would not happen.
Does anyone remember that or am I mistaken?
I won't say that I will never fly on a Max8.
I have decided that I am willing to pay an extra 10% to 20% or more to fly on another plane.
How much exactly will be determined at ticket time, but at least 10%.
Rather than trying to determine exactly which model is scheduled for a flight it will be safer to avoid all Boeing products as far as possible.
I suspect that I may not be the only person who thinks like this.
Good luck with rebranding, Boeing.


Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[1503-44]

Waross, you are absolutely not the only person thinking like that, except flying safely might mean me not flying at all. I also think that paying a premium for the "privilege" of safe flying is certainly not fair to us guinea pigs at this time. I'm thinking more like a 60% DISCOUNT! for at least a full year of fleet operation is in order while they rebuild their reputation and our trust. I for one am not in the mind frame to trust Boeing the FAA, or the CDC, DOJ, USPS, or even Fish and Wildlife Service for that matter, until there is a change of government. That's just how it is now. Fortunately I have alternatives.

Let's see how long it takes the airlines to drop the "-8". I'll bet they will never make any distinction at all.

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

 

[Sparweb]

Yes, I remember the re-branding discussion a while ago - which circulated primarily in the media and wags like us, not Boeing.
I'm not a marketer, but my guess on the strategy: You don't re-brand while the product is still broken.
You re-brand when (you hope) it's fixed.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[Sparweb]

Boeing actually made some sales. To a polish airline, reportedly. Not a large number, but any amount > 0 is "infinitely" better.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[moon161]

Any sale to a polish airline is a LOT.

*rimshot*

I'll see myself out.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The name 737-8 is actually it's proper certification name.

Max is the series name. So there is 737-7 737-8 737-9 and 737-10 under the max name. But for official purposes they are called those. All the certification paperwork will use those designation. There is another sub type for Ryanair with extra emergency exits to cram more people in. It will have another code when it eventually fly's.

The 10 hasn't been certified yet at all.

It's like the A220 was called the cs100/cs300 but now it's A220. But all the paperwork calls it a BD500 and that hasn't changed.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Seems they are taking the plane to the Canadians for flight tests.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...osed-border-by-sending-max-to-canada-for-test

 

[Sparweb]

From what I have gathered, many senior people in Transport Canada developed their own views (ref. 1, 2 below) about the causes and required remedy for this aircraft, quite independently of the FAA and Boeing. Over the year and half of the re-certification process, it seems like both FAA and Boeing have evolved their positions closer and closer to the positions taken by Transport Canada early on. It is encouraging now, that Transport Canada will be able to test their positions on the actual aircraft and confirm.


1 Transport Minister Marc Garneau said on Wednesday that the planes would be grounded “for as long as it takes” and pilots should experience the fixes Boeing is devising in simulators instead of relying only on more basic, computer-based ground training.

2 “MCAS has to go,” a manager at Canada’s aviation regulator said in an email to global peers

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I think Transport Canada also want a method of killing the stick shaker without pulling CB's.

The training is going to be very interesting to see what they come up with. I suspect in EASA land its going to require separate training and checking to the NG.

Also they won't have developed the new QRH yet or procedures until the systems are finalised.

BTW just finished 100 hours on the A220. Nice machine and well thought out human machine interface. Handles lovely.

 

[Sparweb]

You're right. Thanks for reminding me. They did ask for added means to reduce the distractions during prolonged emergencies.

Jealous about the A220 time. Are you referring to sim or actual airborne time?

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

64 hours of sim for the type rating, And 100 hours flying the real one. I did a Zero flight time rating for the second time in my career.

It fly's like a proper aircraft despite the FBW, thrust levers move when the AT is in charge of them.

The 94% thing above FL290 on the engines is not such a big deal. But that could be because on TP's we were used to doing our own power in the cruise anyway.


Still on the learning curve with energy management in the decent. I have only once managed to do a flight idle from FL400 to landing configuration then power up for Vref +5 on the ILS without the power coming up or having to use speed brakes before than. But its getting more economic and smooth the more approaches I do. Strangely enough I am better at landing it at night than during the day. Still have to remind myself I don't have the Q400's 6 deg pitch tail strike limit or need to keep the power on during touch down anymore.

Only done one auto land on the aircraft which was easy enough and worked and its landings are firmer than mine. Have to get another 50 sectors before I get my restrictions on low viz operations removed but plenty of time before the fog season starts again.

But as an aside and comment on training for aircraft. I did 130 hours ground school training for the A220 and 16 4 hour sim sessions, of which 4 4 hour sessions were in a fixed base procedural trainer, 9 in a full motion sim (well for us it was the same sim but the motion was turned on), 1 session low vis approaches. 1 skills test and 1 session doing circuits for the zero flight time rating. And 20 line training sectors with pax in the back the first 4 were with a TRE to complete the zero flight time rating. It took 3.5 months and I think you lot could see the state of my stress levels through various post beer posts during it. But be warned I have 4 days off coming up day after tomorrow. But my stress levels are now much much lower now everything is completed and signed off. Well for another 5 months when I will be in the sim again when they will expect everything to be a lot more slick.

To note they claim the A220 is memory item free.... its not really but the items could be called normal flying procedures which should be done anyway and some relate to the Autothorttle being out due to this 94% restriction. What it does have though is poo loads of operating restriction numbers you need to remember. Max tailwind for engine start 18knts, cold weather temperature's (already decided -40 deg C and get the book out with them), most of them are to do with the engines with these large fans and inlets. By far the largest amount of any type I have flown.

The ECAS checklist and alerting system is an utter dream to have and use. I haven't had a problem in the air yet to use the none normal checklist side of things in real life, works a treat in the sim though. The MEL is a bit interesting though, and will I suspect it will take a few screwups with it until I get my head round it.

 

[1503-44]

Looks really nice.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9YINZQ-whcY

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

You should see the toilet in it!!!! On the Q400 it would need to be an emergency before even contemplating going for a dump on it. Going for a pee had its technical issues for a 6ft bloke. Going for a sit down ran the risk of appearing in the cabin with your trousers down.

Actually the toilet and isolation of air in it. Although not a regulatory requirement has had a lot of thought and engineering go into it. Never mind the artistic merits of what they have done.

Big change in LGW when I was in there last week, its like a grave yard of Easyjet and BA aircraft. No traffic on frequency, tower doing ground and clearance delivery. Only 1 fuel bowser doing the whole of the airport.

Straight in no pissing about from ERING.

 

[1503-44]

Yeah. That's important!!!!
So they really did think of everything.
Great. Enjoy your new office!

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

They have even bolted the pilots seats to the same bit of structural metal as the nose gear.

This allows every single light to be felt by your bum.

So in low Viz you know your on the centre line and your speed by your bum jiggle. And you can taxi to the apron without seeing a thing out the window by Braille.

 

[1503-44]

Back to the future, flying by the seat of your pants. I like it up to that last bit. Like the misplaced baggage cart!

“What I told you was true ... from a certain point of view.” - Obi-Wan Kenobi, "Return of the Jedi"

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Joking aside they have built a very nice aircraft.

It's real shame that they have stopped doing commercial aircraft.

They have also put a lot of thought about how a pilot interacts with it. They have done the same thing in the cabin for both pax and cabin crew.

The thing just sips fuel to boot.

Fl400 at ceiling weight limit at M0.78 and she was burning 1550 kg an hour at 90% N1. The none geared engines on A320/737-800/emb195 burn in the region of 2600kg an hour but with more pax.

 

[Lou Scannon]

It's a shame the way the Canadian aviation industry was/has been marginalized over the years. A little over 60 years ago they produced a world class air superiority weapon that was unfortunately stillborne.

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz