Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 8] 24

[Sparweb]

This post is the continuation from this series of previous threads:

thread815-445840
thread815-450258
thread815-452000
thread815-454283
thread815-457125
thread815-461989
thread815-466401

This topic is broken into multiple threads due to the length to be scrolled, and images to load, creating long load times for some users and devices.
If you are NEW to this discussion, please read the above threads prior to posting, to avoid rehashing old discussions.

Thank you everyone for your interest! I have learned a lot from the discussion, too.

Some key references:
Ethiopian CAA preliminary report (Link from Ethiopia is now broken. See link from NTSB Investigations below)

Indonesian National Transportation Safety Committee preliminary report

NTSB Investigations

NTSB Safety Recommendation Report: Assumptions Used in the Safety Assessment Process and the
Effects of Multiple Alerts and Indications on Pilot Performance

A Boeing 737 Technical Site

Washington Post: When Will Boeing 737 Max Fly Again and More Questions

BBC: Boeing to temporarily halt 737 Max production in January

Pulitzer Prize, For groundbreaking stories that exposed design flaws in the Boeing 737 MAX that led to two deadly crashes and revealed failures in government oversight.

http://www.sparweb.ca

 

[dik]

I did several reports for SF insurance (no name)... and they were notorious for denying claims... I would advise the policy holder that even though SF was my client, the the information in my report would essentially be the same if I were acting for my client or the policy holder. With SF, I would also advise them that they could get another engineer to provide them with a report before any changes had occurred to the damage. SF was notorious for not providing copies of their engineering reports. That the client was informed of using a different engineer was part of all my reports.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Well that didn't take long....

Air Canada had to shut a donk down in flight and declare a pan and divert ferrying a MAX up to start work.

 

[Lou Scannon]

Donk...?
Please elaborate for us uninitiated types...

"Schiefgehen wird, was schiefgehen kann" - das Murphygesetz

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Donk short for donkey ie provides motive power. its not aviation to be honest.

They had to shut down an engine down enroute.

This isn't as bad as it sounds and is nothing to do with the work done in regards to being recertified. It more to do with sitting on the ground for getting on for 2 years. There will be multiple other in flight failures not only engines but other systems as well.

Single engine won't cause any issues. Gear issues might end up with gear up landings which is a different level of media attention.

 

[dik]

We used to call them 'tugs', same thing?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Comcokid]

This may be the first of many issues from MAX aircraft sitting unused in storage for over a year. You can perform the standard maintenance list of checks and replacements, but there will be those odd items that will fail from not being used.

 

[moon161]

^ Be wild if the grounding ended up being more dangerous than MCAS

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Individual failures are not much of a problem because the backup systems then get you back onto the ground. Its when you start getting two or more all at the same time it starts becoming dangerous.

With the air canada aircraft it started off as a hydraulic issue.. Not a problem there is 3 systems of them... Checklist came to the point of doing a precautionary shut down of an engine. In fact as they didn't have any pax on they were going to complete the trip...

Then the fuel cross feed valve wouldn't open so they ended up being only able to pull fuel from one wing. This leads very quickly to a fuel imbalance which is dangerous quiet quickly so they got it on the ground ASAP.

 

[LittleInch]

Is there only one cross feed valve / connection?

I assume it's normally closed as both engines use similar quantities?

I think there are going to be a few of these as the fleet gets back in the air due to lack of action.

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

We are getting into type specific stuff and Frankenstein 1960's design.

A220 has 3 methods of cross feeding.

Yes you normally keep the sides separate and the engines burn about the same and it's used to spot if there maybe a fuel leak.

It's not just the max fleet all fleets short and long haul have been on the ground way more than is healthy.

 

[dik]

From CTV News...

"MIAMI -- A Boeing 737 Max departed Miami International Airport with 100 passengers aboard Tuesday for the aircraft's first U.S. commercial flight since faulty sensor readings contributed to two deadly crashes in 2019.

The American Airlines flight is scheduled to land at New York's LaGuardia Airport around 1:30 p.m. Eastern, according to an airline spokeswoman. The airline gave customers the chance to change flights if they were uncomfortable on the Max."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Its got the fleet tech pilot FAA approved test pilot onboard. It also has a full no restrictions test pilot on board which nobody can quite work out who is paying for. So if between the two of them they can't sort it the whole program is well screwed.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

BTW a no restriction test pilot is a bit of a special beast no type rating required. I have flown with them twice..... Utter lovely blokes and utter gods flying... Chuck Yeager aviation god at handling but utterly shite at working with other people never had it. These gods can do both. When i flew with them they never touched the controls apart from the last 200ft to do the landing because they had never landed the type before.

 

[dik]

From CTV news: "CALGARY -- WestJet says it plans to resume flying its fleet of 737 MAX aircraft later this month, pending approval by Transport Canada.

The announcement follows comments by Transport Canada late last year that safety experts had validated the aircraft design changes and outlined requirements for Canadian carriers to bring it a step closer to resuming flights.

The Boeing 737 Max aircraft has been grounded for nearly two years after technical issues led to deadly crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia."

I think that's one airline I'll avoid...

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[LittleInch]

Just to add to boeings losses.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/jan/07/boeing-fined-737-max-crashes

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.

 

[dik]

"Boeing admitted that two of its technical pilots deceived regulators about the safety of the Max’s MCAS stall prevention software, implicated in both of the fatal crashes."

on their own, or were they 'just following orders'?

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik

 

[JohnRBaker]

The $2.5 billion is nothing compared to what it cost them while the 737-MAX was grounded, to say nothing of what the pandemic has cost them. That being said, Boeing has a market cap of over $120 billion and annual sales close to $61 billion. Yes, that will hurt the bottom line, but it's more more like a broken ankle than a broken back.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Comcokid]

LittleInch posted a link to the Guardian article on the charges and $2.5B fine above. Here is the DOJ announcement on their website.

https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/boei...aud-conspiracy-and-agrees-pay-over-25-billion

 

[waross]

US fines Boeing $2.5bn following fraud charges tied to 737 Max crashes

The settlement includes $2.2bn in compensation to the families of the people killed in the two Max crashes and a $243m fine.

What seems to have happened;
Boeing was fined $243 Million and ordered to pay 2.2 Billion in compensation.
A reporter and/or editor overstated the actual fine by a factor of over 10 to 1 to add emphasis and dramatic appeal.
Is it any wonder that there is widespread distrust of the media?
Is this intentional spin or just a deficient education?

Bill
--------------------
"Why not the best?"
Jimmy Carter

 

[Sparweb]

Is this intentional spin or just a deficient education?

Bear in mind that what passes for news media has been starved of cash and stripped of skilled personnel for 20 years by the internet.
While I also catch myself bemoaning the idiocy that I hear on the mainstream media, I am often reminded that I don't pay each time I read an article from the Guardian, NYT, WP etc.

http://www.sparweb.ca