Boeing again pt2. 16

[Alistair_Heaton]

https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=515237

first thread

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

An airline management problem, a failure of the related CAA, their Chief pilot, and themselves for lack of interest.

All entities that are not Boeing.

Well it is Boeings problem as they are taking now the brunt of the financial hit for leaving the hole in the swiss cheese live and viable for incompetent pilots to stick their finger in.

 

[3DDave]

Yes, yes, make more room for incompetent pilots, like PIA 8303.

Once the pilots don't care about safety it's all over.

Now you have provided proof that that is true for some airlines.

We have recently seen ground collisions, midairs, pilots taking off into crossing traffic. No doubt all Boeing's fault, even when Airbus aircraft are being piloted.

As I noted, the change in attitude towards Boeing happened when the the false stories about the second crash were published to cover for the pilots who were not trained to handle a situation they KNEW could be fatal if they didn't use the trim switch to trim the plane - and look - they didn't use the trim switch to trim the plane.

Hard to defend two pilots who both failed at a simple task as that, but do go on about how you too would never think to remove the trim load.

But what are they supposed to do when they get a stick shaker? One of them is do not change flap or gear configuration. What did ET-302 do? Retracted the flaps.

This from the 737 QRH in 2009. Only about a decade to learn that. And it is unrelated to MCAS, but they still failed. Maybe planes need to never stall? Or maybe the FAA could take responsibility for allowing the certification of all aircraft to produce false stall warnings.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

To be honest the public might have been like that but industry and regulator it was when they found out how wide of the mark the certification was.

The human performance benchmark that Boeing was using is gone now forever thankfully.

 

[1503-44]

Their CEO performance marking system went with it.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[3DDave]

Yes. The human performance benchmark has moved to planting planes into the dirt due solely to human error or because triple redundancy isn't enough. That was the previous major reason for crashes, so not much will change.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

If they had used triple redundancy on the AoA sensors they wouldn't have killed everyone on board 2 aircraft.

But if they had done that it would have required SIM training and possibly another rating.

Never mind triple redundancy. A220 has 6 of them like the other smart probe FWB aircraft.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Btw this is what's delaying the certification of the max 10 and max 7.

Plus also the electric system which should never have been certified on the NG.

Haven't a clue if they are going to force a modification of all the 8's and 9's.

But that's another pending expense.

 

[3DDave]

AF 447 had triple redundancy and a flaw that Airbus did not communicate to pilots. It was also not the only Airbus to have a pitch trim failure due to AoA sensors. Hidden from the public a flight had two AoA sensors freeze and the third, free one, was voted out for disagreeing. The computers kept trying to trim to get the AoA down and ended up plunging. The pilot figured out the problem and pulled the breakers to the two incorrect flight computers, not a step that was included in the FCOM, to keep the plane from crashing.

Had AF447 been equipped with MCAS and Airbus used real force-feedback to reflect control loads it would not have crashed.

But yes, go with that. 6 you say? Why not 50? or 100? PIA 8303 was FBW, so did that save them?

The number of failures caused by flight control systems that have killed people is tiny compared to the vast number of unreliable pilots who crash on the regular, and bad maintainers crippling planes, like the German ones who miswired aileron controls backwards, nearly ending the flight and the lives of those on board seconds after leaving the ground. Again, the pilots figured it out, something that was not included in the FCOM or the onboard know-it-all hand-holder software.

The A220 is a rebadged Bombardier, a company that failed because their product cost too much to develop. Useless redundancy is likely a large cost driver. AFAIK Airbus is losing money on each one they complete. It won't break even on their investment until 2026, if then.

In late 2026 Airbus may ramp up to 14 a month. 737 Max rate was 38 a month, with a goal of 50 a month.

How long would a 500 plane fleet of A220s take to complete? 737 MAX is about a year.

Airlines don't want to train pilots because that costs them money; they are willing to sacrifice lives by cutting back on training, as you clearly stated they do. Ethiopian massively expanded their operations. Like your Norwegian buddies appear to have done, the Ethiopians took no initiative to enhance their training for this one known problem.

Because it would cost money.

 

[1503-44]

I thought everyone agreed to disagree about that.

Is there a new punch list/timeliness in regards to recertification actions?
Are workers still on strike? What's the stumbling blocks to resolution?
Are we nearing a bailout?


--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The bulk of what he has written I don't disagree with.

It's only really the sensory saturation that both crews were subjected to compromising decision making and procedure compliance I say is understandable human performance failure and he says is utter incompetence.

The pilot incompetence has been protected against as aircraft types have developed.

Btw I think airbus needs a fresh sheet of paper new certification of its flight control logic and method. The current is 1980's 40 plus years old.

 

[1503-44]

There are tons of factors at fault here.
None were handled well.
That's the underlying issue.

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

But it's been going on for years for most aircraft types.

Even the Concorde crash was fudged to put the blame on a none french actor.

Airbus going into the trees doing a flyby was also a bits suspect.

 

[DirteJoe]

Complacency kills.

You pilots wouldn't even want to know what silliness goes on in the maintenance hanger and machine shops that gets signed off as good because "the plane has to fly".

Safety is going downhill overall in aviation and everyone is allowing it to happen.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Some of us do know and also who does it.

Barry and his pen.

I have left a couple of jobs due to it.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Seems spirit is laying off 750 employees now.

 

[DirteJoe]

I left the aero industry over safety at the beginning od covid. You raise a concern and it's a black mark on you.

Barry and his pen, specifically at Spirit, is bad. I've heard many scary stories from welders and machinists from a certain Texas based company. Falsified NDT documents, aluminum filler on inconel parts being passed, external machining of bad parts to make them look new when installed, painting over corrosion.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Do they have it or not...

Boeing And Machinists Workers Union Reaches Tentative Deal To End Strike

The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers said early Saturday that it plans to hold a ratification vote on Wednesday.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/boei...trike-second-month_n_6713dab5e4b0e2b6e54c440c

An excerpt from the above item:

Boeing and the union representing striking machinists have negotiated a new contract proposal that would provide bigger pay raises and bonuses in a bid to end a costly walkout that has crippled production of airplanes for more than a month.

The International Association of Machinists and Aerospace Workers said early Saturday that it plans to hold a ratification vote on Wednesday.

The union said the deal would increase pay by 35% over four years, up from 30% that was offered last month. It also boosts the ratification bonus to $7,000 per worker instead of $6,000.

The new offer would not restore a traditional pension plan — a key demand of the 33,000 striking workers — but it would increase the amount of contributions to 401(k) retirement plans that Boeing would match and retain performance bonuses that Boeing wanted to eliminate, the union said.

“The fact the company has put forward an improved proposal is a testament to the resolve and dedication of the frontline workers who’ve been on strike — and to the strong support they have received from so many,” union district presidents Jon Holden and Brandon Bryant said in a statement.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[1503-44]

Does HQ have to sell the golden parachutes now?

--Einstein gave the same test to students every year. When asked why he would do something like that, "Because the answers had changed."

 

[LittleInch]

I get the drift but what is "Barry and his pen" ??

Remember - More details = better answers
Also: If you get a response it's polite to respond to it.