Boeing again 47

[human909]

Another incident. Thought nothing at the moment to indicate that this was a specifically Boeing problem. However it seems pretty clear that something malfunctioned.

https://nypost.com/2024/07/12/world-news/packed-boeing-777-jet-drags-its-tail-during-take-off/

 

[SWComposites]

https://avherald.com/h?article=51aeb68f&opt=0

Sounds like pilot error in entering data into flight computer.

 

[3DDave]

The pilot has instrumentation to tell how much pitch is allowed to avoid a tail strike. There's more error here than poor data entry, even if that's where it started.

It could easily have been a case where the plane rolls off the runway nose high - the take-off should have been aborted when the nose went past the tail strike attitude.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

The point when they found out that it was not flying at the specified speed which was incorrect would have been faster than V1.

That's our cut off when we have to go flying. Well we don't have to but the stats have shown that the fatalities go through the roof if we do abort above it.

It's been pretty hard and trained for the whole of my career 23 years to go flying if you reach V1.

Tail strikes happen on all long aircraft when there is human errors in performance calculations and also setting the initial trim index.

Good news is all aircraft are designed to take it. Some the area is just a void under the skin others it's a titanium skid plate but in all case the essential services are away from that area. You can destroy the apu though.

I have never been in the situation real life. The Q400 was ripe for them. And only had a SIM with it once when it was set up to try and make us tail strike on a220. By incorrect cargo loading data.

I screwed the experience up and abandoned at 90knts. Got a bit of a talking to, to justify the aborted takeoff. It just wasn't looking right. We weren't accelerating fast enough and we passed a intersection 20knts slower than my gut feeling said we should of.

After the talking to we were told it was a performance issue and we had missed out on the training exercise because of my gut feeling. We did it again and scrapped it but the suprise factor was gone so it was no big deal. The examiner at break coffee just said "I had to give you a hard time, just checked your flight safety data, keep listening to your guts... We can't train or rely on gut feelings. Your getting a 4 for that one" the FO though missed out on the learning experience unfortunately.

There is a system in development to match the prediction performance to the actual real life. It's going into the surface management system that makes sure we are on the correct runway for departure. But I think it has a few more years to go. It will trigger a low energy abort around 80 knts apparently.

 

[human909]

Yeah I was wondering if it was pilot/human error to end up with that pitch too early. But I'm hardly an expert and all the initial media reports were 100% positive about the pilot actions without touching on what caused that event to occur.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

There are many slices of cheese involved and many humans.

I agree with hookie that there was issues with the handling.


You don't need fancy instruments to see your over pitched. You just look out the window.

Rotate to the normal attitude and then hold wait until it goes flying.

Although a long runway that will be a heavy aircraft.

 

[FacEngrPE]

Calling anything pilot error is easy (most often, perhaps always blaming pilot error is at best an incomplete conclusion).

A different point of view:
Complex Systems Thinking – How to change the way we think about problem solving
Brady Heywood

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

New CEO announced

https://uk.finance.yahoo.com/news/boeing-names-ceo-reports-hefty-132118029.html

Bit of profile

https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/who-is-boeings-new-ceo-kelly-ortberg-2024-07-31/

He did a good job on the c series.

 

[waross]

But Calhoun indicated he does not expect significant personnel changes, saying, "I don't think this is intended to be a large leadership overhaul."

Calhoun may be a little lacking in credibility on his last week on the job.

Boeing on Wednesday named the aerospace veteran Robert "Kelly" Ortberg its next CEO, as the aviation giant reported a hefty loss on continued operational problems.
His appointment, which will take effect on August 8, comes as Boeing attempts to rebound from a series of safety and quality control problems that have sharpened scrutiny of the company.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Kelly is quite an interesting person.

Mechanical engineer.

Was known to sit in on project meetings and have his lunch just listening.

Knew the project engineers personally.

Even was involved in the graduate recruitment and training program.

Sounds quite promising for Boeing

 

[3DDave]

Great internal details. Must be on the internal distribution lists or knows a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy.

Nothing is promising for Boeing until the Board resigns.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I had one of the bomdider CS program head engineers on the jump seat on the 31st.

Retired now but was working with Kelly on the biz jet and cs cockpit concept project that bomdider has created.


It was an education on the capabilities of the FMS and NAV methodology, Definitely a new generation of information and interaction. Most of it I knew it was there but never got in the habit of using. But there were a couple of features I had never heard about. I might add they are documented and more suited to on the fly route creation which is highly unusual in my flavour of air transport where we download and fly it.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Not yet a 'disaster', at least not in the classic sense, but it appears that NASA may have to 'hire' Space X to bring home the two Boeing Starliner astronauts who've been stuck on the ISS since early June:

NASA Is ‘Evaluating All Options’ to Get the Boeing Starliner Crew Home

Eight weeks after the Starliner spacecraft launched, NASA is still looking for possible answers to its technical issues—including the possibility of SpaceX lending a hand.

https://www.wired.com/story/nasa-boeing-starliner-return-home-spacex/

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[thebard3]

I've been posting about it on the 'spacecraft engineering' forum. I've been holding off on the 'disaster' discussion for some reason.

Brad Waybright

It takes competence to recognize incompetence.

 

[Sparweb]

"I've been holding off on the 'disaster' discussion for some reason"

-because it hasn't burned up yet.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I've been posting about it on the 'spacecraft engineering' forum.

Sorry, I don't follow that forum.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Just out of interest I think the crew dragon has 7 seats.

And the next mission using it has 4 onboard for launch.


How much work would be required to get an extra 2 on to get them back?

 

[JohnRBaker]

I think that the Dragon capsule can have UP to seven seats, but I don't think that configuration has ever been flown before.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I think the latest mission on the crew dragon is due to come back in February.

Would need to go up with 6 seats fitted. Plus adjusted life support consumables.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Alister, with the Boeing Starliner no longer available for its proposed future fights, at least in the short haul, I suspect that Space X will be asked to fill in the gaps.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without