Boeing again 47

[Alistair_Heaton]

Good point about the composite materials hadn't thought about that.

Also zero experience with them at this level.

I could imagine it would complicate things significantly.

 

[waross]

Torquing the head, in some instances some indeterminate torque may be lost to overcome friction between the turning bolt and the material.
It depends.

--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

I would also think there spinning harder material against the composite matrix will generate heat and other effects which may cause issues.

I am hoping 3D and SW are kind enough to post some more details on the topic.

On the metal airframes we used to regularly see the skinners.

Composite we maybe see one after a lightning strike looking pale. But that's it. Our tech have a collosal composite tech team including a couple of Deg level qualified certifiers. Lightning strike on a 737 or dash was a 30 min inspection and a bit of speed tape usually done by the normal B1s. Last lightning strike on the A220 bill came in at 3/4 of a million $ and it spent 2 months in the hanger. For a wing tip strike.

 

[TugboatEng]

Does it bother you that your airplane insults you every time you land?

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

That's only proper Airbus that calls you a retard.

We have to manually say retard on the A220 if the auto thrust is on .

I don't have it on for manual landings due to a history of turboprop flying without auto thrust.

 

[3DDave]

A220 is technically Bombardier and has no relation to Airbus user interface. It is also a boat anchor for Airbus; sold by Spirit at a loss and it has no future integration with the Airbus product line strategy of commonality on the flight deck. If Boeing absorbs Spirit, then Airbus will be paying Boeing for major components. If they can't get a deal to get those factories from Boeing or Spirit, Airbus will have to tool up a brand new factory to build them at a loss.

 

[SWComposites]

The Spirit factories making Airbus parts will be sold to Airbus. Boeing doesn’t want them and Airbus doesn’t want Boeing to have them.

A220 program was not sold by Spirit; it was given to Airbus by Bombardier who didn’t have the cash to invest in it.

Yeah lightning strike damage on composites can be a lot more expensive to repair than metal structures, even with lightning protection on the parts. Its the tradeoff for weight savings.

 

[3DDave]

"The Spirit factories making Airbus parts will be sold to Airbus."

Airbus is expecting Boeing to kick in a large amount of cash with that "sale". Why would Boeing do that?

The A220 large component production is sold at a loss to Airbus by Spirit.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Because Boeing is sitting on absolutely collosal amounts of pension liabilities

 

[3DDave]

Major US corps have funded independent investment corps to manage pensions.

Most have escaped defined benefit plans in favor of pushing the retirement funding risk to employees via 401k plans. Not sure what the situation is for offshore Spirit Aerosystems holdings require, but that is a drop in the proverbial bucket.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Because Boeing is sitting on absolutely collosal amounts of pension liabilities

I collect a monthly pension from Boeing, despite having never worked for them.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

It's all under UK law. And the site would have to be environmentally cleaned before disposal if they closed it.

 

[3DDave]

The pension check from Boeing is not on the Boeing general ledger.

"the funding status of Boeing’s pension master trust grew to 93%, as of September 30, from 85.8% in 2020. The company’s one-, five- and 10-year returns were 0.4%, 4.1% and 5.8%, respectively. The fund has $49.1 billion in assets, as of September 30."

https://www.ai-cio.com/news/boeings-elizabeth-tulach-soars-as-2023-cio-of-the-year/

That would mean a current shortfall of $4B on an increasing market value fund. Hardly "collosal". The fund is doing better than Boeing is.

 

[JohnRBaker]

That's good to hear Dave...

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[IRstuff]

I think most companies no longer have large financial liabilities w.r.t. pensions, since most of them have been sold to insurance companies and are essentially funded by annuities managed by an insurance company. The lump sum cash value I'm sometimes offered for my pension comes out to be what an equivalent annuity would cost.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

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[Alistair_Heaton]

It will be the old Shorts pension coverage that will be an issue.

The will be a load of final salary pensions in the mix as well.

If Boeing buys spirit it takes on the liabilitys that came with the Belfast operation purchase. Unless it can off load them through sale to airbus.

As most things are in northern Ireland it's a complete mess by all accounts.

 

[Alistair_Heaton]

Found it...

When spirit bought it off bombardier in 2019 it paid 500milion for it and took on 700 million pounds sterling in pension liabilities.

And the pension fund has not performed very well and is lacking in capital.

The UK government is on the hook if it fails. And there is UK law on this subject.

There are a raft of historic issues with the whole operation. I think I read somewhere there was only 10% catholics employed on site. The NI is now around 45 catholic.

 

[3DDave]

Boeing doesn't need all of Spirit. Boeing only needs Wichita. Spirit can sink beneath the waves after that.

 

[SWComposites]

Boeing needs the Spirt Wichita, Tulsa and Dallas sites.
Airbus needs the Belfast, Prestwick, Saint-Nazarre, and North Carolina sites.
There’s a couple more (MRO?) sites to be sorted out.

 

[3DDave]

Peculiarly, there's a fat 2018 announcement that Spirit would expand Tulsa to add more supply for the Wichita 737 line. I wonder how that looks right now with 737 production at a standstill and stock apparently piling up in Wichita.

From Indeed reviews about Tulsa:

June 5, 2020
The ever-changing leadership team lacked vision and direction, which made it nearly impossible to succeed. You can’t run two large facilities with unique histories as one company without a lot of work and they failed to realize that. Everything was about meeting a date and very little to do with quality. They do employ some very intelligent technical people and I learned a lot working there. The “business” side of the company was an utter disaster! No job security, either. That’s why I ultimately decided to leave.

Dallas appears to be an MRO facility purchased by Spirit in 2021, so not much need for that to get production under control. It doesn't look like a must-have facility for Boeing and can probably be spun off and sold to get some cash in to help liquidate Spirit.

Is there something else besides these at those locations?