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Boeing Production Quality Issues 3

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dik

dik

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Apr 13, 2001
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This post is the continuation from this series of previous threads:

thread815-445840: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 1]
thread815-450258: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 2]
thread815-452000: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 3]
thread815-454283: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 4]
thread815-457125: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 5]
thread815-461989: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 6]
thread815-466401: Boeing 737 Max8 Aircraft Crashes and Investigations [Part 7]

From the news...

"Air safety officials in the United States have asked Boeing Co to supply fresh analysis and documentation showing that numerous subsystems in its 737 MAX planes would not be affected by electrical grounding issues first flagged in three areas of the jet in April, two people familiar with the matter have told the Reuters news agency.

The extra analysis injects new uncertainty over the timing of when Boeing’s best-selling plane would be cleared to fly by the US Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) reported Reuters on Tuesday."

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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So the quality on a plain is subjective. The air fraim has one quality measure, and the passenger components have a different measure.

But I assume the passenger components are not a Boeing issue, and this is related to air fraim.

I also assume this is blown out of perspective by the news media that know nothing, and that does not take the time to look deeper into an issue before reporting.

Sort of like the government software hack, and the reporting that utilities are at risk, despite meeting mandated ciber standards set by the same government.

Not to vent, but to understand the real issue we are discussing, and not what is being reported.
 
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err no in some ways the media are not quite grasping how deep the issue goes. So I am not surprised its confusing.

The design of the components and how it all interacts is the OEM and regulators quality remit that originally certified it. There are certain things which are customer add on's such as pax seating which are a sperate issue and certification issue. And later there can be STC's applied by third parties which are certified which are also not the OEM's problem.

The on going state of play with those components, the modifications to the aircraft are the local regulator and Part 145 organisations problem.

To be honest I really don't understand it all and the interactions between the different entities. I don't need to. I just check that the aircraft has a release to service and there is nothing fresh in the book from the previous crew and then a visual inspection to play spot the difference.
 
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It sounds like the plane is a long way from receiving certification. Seems like the FAA and EASA have little confidence in Boeing right now.

Brad Waybright

The more you know, the more you know you don't know.
 
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OK that's disturbing news from the Seattle Times article.
It's from a leaked document, but specific enough and Gates has already proven to be a credible reporter so I'll take his word at face value.
That means then... Boeing is still trying to play boss and push the FAA around.

There are a lot of terms and explanations given in the article, more than usual so it's pretty valuable to me, perhaps more than the layman, because I can see how it fits together. I don't certify whole airplanes, but on a smaller scale I do the same kinds of steps. They are trying to get the Regulator to begin type inspection flights when they haven't given them the substantiation to show that the plane is ready for it. Two missing items are cited in the article, each of which are sufficient to defer TIA flights. But Boeing asked for it anyway, forcing the FAA official to "officially" deny them. Boeing had a choice to ask only after they'd supplied the substantiation, but they rushed, and now they can't save face.

I don't know who in Boeing thought they would get consent in that situation. If I was to pull a trick like that, the egg would be on my face. When the stakes are high, never ask permission when you can be sure the answer will be "No".
 
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I wonder if engineering got tired of arguing with a Boeing "old school" manager and let him argue with the FAA instead.
"Just do it."
"Yup. We did what you said, boss."

Bill
--------------------
Ohm's law
Not just a good idea;
It's the LAW!
 
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I wouldn't be surprised. There were apparently several suicides or attempts after the MAX. People will just be thinking your not pinning this on me.

The max still isn't finished with. the MAX 10 is getting a third source of AoA data and its still not been released in India and China. Where the company's that have ordered them seem to be quiet happy to just take the late delivery payments.

 
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Thanks for the link. That letter reveals more.
Hidden in page 3... almost not noticed... the statement as follows: "Stabilize the certification basis"

Those comments, coupled with the statements above regarding EASA (unable to accept the certification basis as proposed) is a sign that the unresolved issues may be matters of recent change to the safety standards, or that they have gotten this far into the certification plan without an agreement on the basis of certification with either agency, and only a "latest and greatest" will do.

Also worth noting that the FAA's BASOO Branch was accused of "working for Boeing" in years past. This letter does not have that flavour.
 
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I thought it was a very strong letter and that it was leaked to reduce the possibility of interference. I'm not into this, but I don't think I've seen a letter this direct.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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I must admit with the references to EASA I wonder if the FAA are in a corner. UAE are very EASA orientated in fact most of there regulation is copy and paste.

And the vast bulk of the orders are UAE and less than 30 in EASA. In fact nobody in the USA market has ordered any of them unless its the 10 unidentified orders.

To be honest nobody wants them or needs them just now. Emirates have already been stating that they will refuse them if they don't hit contractual performance targets. Which Boeing have always played a very loose game with when it comes to marketing. Emirates got stung hugely with the A380 slug and it under performing.

Apparently the 787 production issues are still not over with the FAA holding a ban on delivery's
 
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I would hope so... I couldn't think of another reason for the reference. I think with the FAA relinquishing their duties, they are in for a 'pile of hurt' and have lost a big part of what reputation they had. Not being in the industry, I thought they were extraordinary.

Rather than think climate change and the corona virus as science, think of it as the wrath of God. Feel any better?

-Dik
 
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They have just put out an AD on the emergency pressure sensors on 737's which to be honest is not really that unusual.

The telling thing for me is its covers 737-200's all the way through to MAX which means that its the same 1960's sensor on the new ones coming out the hanger.

This sensor goes to the alarms which triggers the mask drop downs on depressurisation as such its pretty mission critical to stop the pilots passing out because of a slow depressurisation.

On the A220 it will trigger a emergency decent with no pilot input down to 15000 ft.


Its the horn that was triggered in this accident.
 
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Not sure if this is relevant, but I recall news reports following the recent trip of Biden to europe where the Eu regulators agreed not to pursue cases of gov't support of boeing if the US doesn't pursue similar charges regarding EU support of airbus. This announcement opens the door to US backingoff the 737 max investigations and related suits, and might explain todays jump in Boeing stocks.

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick
 
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