Bread and butter civil engineering tasks for work on the side. 13

[proletariat]

It is sometimes embarassing to not know how to do some of the bread n' butter civil jobs that the average member of the population thinks we should do. I'm doing a little exploration into some of these things, which I hope will pan out into some side-jobs. I'm looking for items that your average contractor will deal with regularly, so there will be sure to be demand for these services.

Structural timber (houseplan) review and sealing seems to be a very self-contained activity which would be ideal for side work. I've been reviewing the structural wood class I had in college. I also plan to order some of the books from the American Wood Council, which I understand is the primary design manual for the residential timber industry.

On-lot septic seems to be another of these, but the design materials are a little more difficult to locate. It seems that this is learned more by rote and OJT than in a design manual. There are some regulations in the state code, and a state DEP seweage enforcement officer manual, but I haven't had a look at it yet.

Any other ideas?

 

[RDK]

I am always against anyone working “on the side”.

Firstly you have to be sure that you don’t take clients away from your current employer. You have a fiduciary duty to your employer NOT to do anything against his interests. Who is to say that the client that you get for a residential job would not be a potential client for a new factory. Would you refer him to the employer or be tempted to use this to go out on your own totally and become his competitor.

Secondly you need insurance, tools like computers and software etc. Can you afford to have the necessary supports in place for a few side jobs? The cost of simply being open for business is significant. (I work out of my house and am about $15,000 in the hole before I take in the first cent in a year. That’s right it takes me $15,000 in net income before I start to have anything for me.)

Thirdly you have an obligation to NOT use your current employer’s resources. This means taking calls during office hours (that is using the time that you have sold to the employer for outside business) or to use the employers computers, internet, library, software, large plotters etc.

What would you do when a side client demands something done right now? Call in sick? It will happen sooner or later you will have a need to meet with a client or building inspector or contractor on an urgent issue on a side job and guess what? They only work when you are supposed to be at your main job.

If you want to be a sole practitioner then make the break, hang out your shingle and be a business person competing fairly and openly in the marketplace.

There are lots of niche markets available to a sole engineer especially if you want to work in the residential markets. House inspections, design and plans, expert witness for court cases all come to mind. However be careful because while a business will freely pay normal engineering charge out rates a homeowner will only see you for the hour you are on site and not want to pay you for travel, research time, report writing time etc.

Homeowners also don’t want to pay normal charge out rates for engineers, “What do you mean twice salary cost? All I’ll pay is salary cost because all I am getting is time!” (Also where I live the Builder’s Liens Act specifically excludes engineers from placing a lien on a property to collect fees. If you are not paid then there is a real difficulty forcing payment.)

Other niche markets are contractors for temporary works like shoring and formwork, expert witness for court cases or advice on engineering matters to lawyers and arbitration and mediation of construction disputes.

Just quit your day job first. Then you can be a business man and compete openly and fairly with your fellow engineers.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[proletariat]

Let me re-rail this thing before it gets out of hand. Firstly, I wouldn't compete w/ my employer. I work for someone who is too big to worry about on-lot septic, and has absolutely no stake in the structural business.

Before doing anything, I need target markets to go for and the ability to design for those markets, which is what this thread is all about. After I have that, I'll worry about insurance and meetings and the like.

Essentially, I'm an island. Nobody where I work knows how to do the small jobs. Furthermore, I can't just call somebody up and say, "Hey Mr. PE, I'd like to be your competition, can you give me a few pointers?"

Septic and residential structural are just two of many areas where a guy w/ a PE seal could compete. Think of this as brainstorming.

 

[GolfMeeting]

Proletariat

I am in the same club as you. My employer is too big and specializes in a totally different area from the majority of my qualifications. There is no possible way I could compete with my employer without having 500 Billion in Cash.

I have lined out insurance for whenever I might need it.

I am also looking at some of the bread and butter boiler plate work that you are looking at.

I also can do flood plain evaluations for insurance purposes following our state's guidlines. This kind of work from experience with a small Environmental firm can become very cookie cutter because the houses need to be re-evaluated everytime they are re-sold.

It seems like only the very small engineering firms do much of the bread and butter work, and they even drop it when they pick up a large project or two. Picking up the bread and butter projects would help both the customers and take pressure off the small guys from their main customers when they are swamped.

For this latter reason, I thought about approaching some of the small local firms to see if I could possibly work with them rather than totally against them being the engineer's engineer rather than a customer's engineer.

There has to be some niche where everyone would benifit.

You could always become a power Ebay seller in the meantime.

 

[solid7]

I am always against anyone working “on the side”.

Funny thing - I was going to give the same advice, but I thought that I might sound too negative.

The idea of doing engineering work "on the side" always leaves me dumbstruck.

Now, I don't mean to be rude - but the fact is, your competition knows exactly what they're doing, and they've probably been doing it for many years. You have to ask yourself honestly, "Who would want to hire me as an inexperienced part-timer?"

To train yourself how to do something, from a book from a class you took, doesn't really make much sense in the business world. People want experts. And, experience either has, or will eventually teach most people - that when something matters, you pay a premium, and expect your "professional" to deliver.

The better route would be to take a job for (minimum) about 5 years in the skill which you wish to hire out, and then think about doing it full time.




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[solid7]

The other 2 posts came in while I was typing.

Nevertheless - are you SURE that you don't have any competition? Are you SURE that nobody else is doing what you want to do?

It would be a really nasty thing to land a job, and then earn a reputation as being - well... incompetent. (deserved or not) It only takes a couple of mistakes, and you could end up spawning a comptetition pool. Not good for a part timer.






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[zcp]

Proletariat,

How about?
1) Residential structural - beams for remodels, floor systems for "wanting to take a wall out", help on foundations for high backfill
2) Home inspections - get some training for the non-civil aspects (HVAC, elec., etc.)

If you are working it as a 2nd job, your overhead will be lower and some of the people who couldn't afford you and therefore would just wing it will now have access to some engineering advice. Bill yourself as the helpful engineer.

Good luck!

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[RDK]

You might not be competing with your employer but what about the issues of having to respond to issues on the side while at work?

You could get a call from a building inspector with questions about a design? They work the same hours that you do so taking the call would be stealing the time from your employer.

When are you going to inspect your design? Best time to inspect is when the contractor is on site. But that’s during business hours or are you going to steal that time as well?

If you want to be an entrepreneur and a business man then take the plunge. It’s much better on this side even if income can be uneven. If you want the security of a steady job with a large firm then stay there.

As far as I am concerned there are no half measures in this area.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[solid7]

As far as I am concerned there are no half measures in this area.

Right.





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[zcp]

RDK,

I have noticed you are very passionate about this issue. What is the Kitson Engineering story and how did you get started?

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[johnwm]

In business terms it's called 'keeping the entry barriers high' - standard technique to minimise competition by making it difficult to enter the marketplace.

Good Luck
johnwm
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[solid7]

In business terms it's called 'keeping the entry barriers high' - standard technique to minimise competition by making it difficult to enter the marketplace

Giving somebody good sound advice about not doing something half-assed is considered "keeping the entry barriers high"?

Please tell me, then - what barn was I born in?

You do, of course, realize that RDK's advice is not being given to someone with whom he will be competing? Had that been the case, maybe it would sound a bit suspicious. But even at that - competition, in the minds of most well adjusted people, is a good - no, GREAT thing. It lets us know that we either need to get better at what we do, (always improve) or it shows us who we can work for, if we can't cut it!

Not very nice to stop by for a quick "hit and run." I've disagreed with RDK on a number of things, but I can NEVER disagree with someone for encouraging someone to do the best they can, or not do it at all.

Your rhetoric leads me to believe that you've never owned your own business, and might be a little misplaced in this forum. If I'm wrong, please share your experience...




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[RDK]

Zcp

I worked for government for 15 years and during that time was laid off twice. After the second layoff I started working for a private firm that had taken over the facility where I was working.

They reorganized after one year and I got my third layoff. I started the company to be in control of my destiny and am the only full time permanent employee.

I have lost a lot of business to people who have a full time job and undercut me on a price basis.

I also have picked up some business in fixing some of their problems that they have created simply because they could not be there when required by the client.

The bulk of my work is in construction management and the private firm that I worked for is one of my biggest clients. They and their associated companies plus one of their clients and a large consulting firm together account for over 80% of my revenue over the last 12 years. I have worked projects in 6 of the 10 Canadian provinces and in Europe. I am also currently in discussions with an organization for some work in Asia.

Between major jobs I do a lot of little stuff to keep busy and to cover the overhead. The little stuff is exactly the work that we are talking about here, residential work, small designs, inspections etc. I get most of it directly but also get a fair number of referrals from contacts in the large firms where the work is too small for them to be interested in.

I don’t mind having other competition. I do mind someone who is doing it simply for pocket change without all the expenses that I have because they are supported by their employer (computers, cell phones, reference material etc.) or are directly stealing the time from their employer to compete with me.

If I was doing this on the side I could use my home phone. I don’t know about where you live but here a personal phone is about half the cost of a business phone. Needless to say I have both a personal line and a business line in my house. Anyone with only a home phone has a cost advantage over me and is essentially cheating the phone company to get this advantage.

We are supposed to be an ethical profession although sometimes it is hard to see that fact.


Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[stanier]

If you have a conflict with your employer , tell them what you are doing. Tell them they dont pay you enough to make ends meet. You will soon find out how valuable you are to them. Explain if you take time out for your business you will make it up. How many hours of unpaid work have you given them. You will find out if they trust you.

Alternative do as I did switch to working on a contract basis where you are paid on an hourly basis. Then you provide services not on an employee basis but as a sub contractor.

Time is a dreadful way of renumeration. I saved a company $1/2million with few hours work. So how does that compute? Companies like time emasurement as its easy to measure. Contribution is what is valuable so either you are worth something or you are not.

If you make your position open to your employer and you are laid off then I wouldnt go into business as there is at least one senior engineer who doesnt think you are valuable enough.

 

[solid7]

Stanier - I can't tell you how wrong you are, on multiple accounts.

If anyone here is having any thoughts of folowing your advice, I'd beg them to consider twice. Because the alternative to "finding out if they trust you", is to paint a target on your back. Your advice is wonderful, if you fancy yourself something of a maverick.

Almost anytime someone assigns self-worth against the backdrop of corporate interests, they are almost destined for trouble. Cheers to you if it worked in your case - but it's not realistic in about 99% of the cases.

I wish I could give negative stars for the advice you just gave....




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[stanier]

Solid7,

I agree with your very good point. You have to be very good to go out on your own. It is better you find out early rather than later what soemone thinks of you. Customer feedback is necessary in business.

I advise people that want to go out on their own that they should have sufficient funds to last a year without work.

If you work on a contract basis you do not have to divulge your intentions. You are an independent contractor. If you are an employee you have an ethical obligation to reveal your intentions and take the consequences. If you sneak aroundwith a side business and get found out, then get sacked and try to make a go of it your past has to be lived with.

Many companies like to reduce staff numbers but keep skills available. Allowing someone to go out on their own can be a case in point. You first client may be your last employer.

The big "but" is would they use you? Do you have the resources to meet their needs? Would they want you to work for a competitor? Best you find out as you cant guess it.

 

[zcp]

Well, here is how I see it. RDK, I applaud your passion, but this forum is titled "starting and running an engineering business". It seems like every time someone comes on here with ideas or questions about that subject, you jump in as the moral police and steer them into a "don't steal from your employer" soapbox. While your advice is excellent, it just seems better served in the ethics forums than it does in this one.

Don't get me wrong, RDK, eng-tips would not be the same without your immediate responses and stoking of the thought process....I guess I am just saying I think you should lighten up on the entreprenuers coming to this particular forum.

**Please note that tone of voice is impossible to convey in simple text, so understand that I say this to you with the utmost respect because I actually agree with you on many of your points. I just don't want to blunt the entreprenuer spirit that I feel this forum is here to foster.

ZCP

http://www.phoenix-engineer.com

 

[RDK]

I’m not trying to blunt the entrepreneur spirit. I welcome the addition of other small firms. If there were a lot more of us out there then it would become more of an accepted practice for teams to come together to bid on larger works and the owners would no longer be able to treat a project specific team as some sort of pariah to be avoided.

If someone is talking about starting a business I will support them with whatever advice and information that I can provide. I have done that in many threads and giver out some detailed and specific information on costs of doing business and pitfalls to be avoided.

I have said in this thread and many similar ones that if you want to be a business owner/operator then be one. If you want to be an employee then be one of those.

Just don’t try to have your feet in both camps.

If you are not willing to plunge in and bet the house and RRSP/IRA then you most likely do not have what it takes to be a business owner.

To operate a business on the side, stealing time form your employer, cheating the phone company by doing business on a home phone, not fully serving the clients because you have a day job obligation that prevents you from responding in a timely manner is not a fair way to compete with your fellow professional engineers.

As far as separating our ethics from the operation of a business this is not possible. Our ethics are what define us and to operate a business or to undertake any endeavor must be in compliance with ethical concerns. I will continue to bring the ethical issues up in any and all threads where there is an ethical angle to the issue.





Rick Kitson MBA P.Eng

Construction Project Management
From conception to completion

http://www.kitsonengineering.com

 

[johnwm]

Thank you for your note of welcome

Your rhetoric leads me to believe that you've never owned your own business, and might be a little misplaced in this forum. If I'm wrong, please share your experience...

I've followed this forum with interest for over 3 years, and I've run my own business for around 20 years. I believe that it's incumbent on us, when giving advice or making comments in a business-oriented forum, to help people to recognize that business knowledge as well as engineering knowledge is a prerequisite of a successful business. I wasn't commenting on whether I felt previous posts were right or wrong, merely pointing out a standard business practice.

If you feel that I was attacking you personally, then I apologise, as I had no such intentions. I am always disappointed with ad hominem attacks in these forums, wherever they come from.

Good Luck
johnwm
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[solid7]

If you feel that I was attacking you personally, then I apologise, as I had no such intentions.

I didn't feel that you were attacking, so much as *speaking for* others, who *include* myself - and I wholeheartedly disagree with your comment. (did then, and do now)

Now that you've explained that you've been in business for 20 years, (I respect you for that) it becomes clear - at least to me - that there has been a paradigm shift amongst some of us, that is not yet apparent to others of us.

I'm a bit younger than many of you - but I thrive on competition, and my remarks, in no way, are meant to limit competition. I am fully confident in my abilities, and improving myself, and trying to do better work than my compeition is the spice of life for me.




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