BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement) 8

[AutoXer]

What does everyone think about the upcoming requirement to have a BS Eng degree + 30 credit hours in order to sit for the PE exam? As a new PE (passed last April), I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. It seems like a pretty big change.

 

[TheTick]

What state?

 

[swertel]

I heard that the model law has changed by NCEES, but that no states have followed it yet by passing statutes requiring additional schooling beyond a BS + 4yrs experience.

I'm with TheTick, what state requires this? And what does that mean for commity?

--Scott

http://wertel.eng.pro

 

[msquared48]

30 credit hours is only about 1 additional year in grad school at 9 to 10 hours per quarter. Interesting as I took two extra years but never received my masters in engineering due to military commitments.

For me, this requirement would be no problem, but the ramifications for many others are interesting to say the least. Seems like extra "time in grade" so to speak above the four years experience would, or should suffice for the older ones of us. But, who am I to say.

Extra information on the particulars would be nice.

Mike McCann
McCann Engineering

 

[AutoXer]

No state requires it yet. But this was in the recent meeting minutes of the local(WV) PE board:

"The 2007 NCEES Annual Meeting was held August 21-26, 2007 in Philadelphia, PA. The Bachelor of Science plus 30 additional semester hours (BS + 30) requirement for licensure was discussed extensively. A motion to rescind the requirement failed to pass by a larger margin than it passed by at the 2006 NCEES Meeting. This indicates growing support for the measure. Details of what will be required in the additional 30 hours are still being developed."

 

[65Roses]

Sounds like to me this is some groups way of stroking their egos. This is why I disassociated myself with NSPE a long time ago. They are not trying to better the profession but really hurting it by turning it into an exclusive country club type of mentality.

Why is my handle 65Roses?
Please visit

http://www.cff.org/aboutCFFoundation/About65Roses/

to learn why!

 

[zdas04]

The requirement was added to the model law in 2006 and as it is currently worded will go into effect in 2015. The new language for the model law can be found on page 13 of the NCEES Newsletter

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/le_2006_04.pdf

Licensure by Examination (Effective January 1, 2015)
The following individuals shall be admitted to an 8-hour
written examination in the principles and practice of
engineering:
(1) An engineer intern with a bachelor’s degree, with an
additional 30 credits of acceptable upper-level undergraduate
or graduate-level coursework from approved
course providers, and with a specific record of an
additional 4 years or more of progressive experience
on engineering projects of a grade and a character
which indicate to the board that the applicant may be
competent to practice engineering.
(2) An engineer intern with a master’s degree in engineering
from an institution that offers EAC/ABETaccredited
programs, or the equivalent, and with a
specific record of an additional 3 years or more of
progressive experience on engineering projects of
a grade and a character which indicate to the board
that the applicant may be competent to practice
engineering.
(3) An engineer intern with a doctorate in engineering
acceptable to the board and with a specific record of
an additional 2 years or more of progressive experience
on engineering projects of a grade and a character
which indicate to the board that the applicant may be
competent to practice engineering.
(4) An individual with a doctorate in engineering acceptable
to the board and with a specific record of an
additional 4 years or more of progressive experience
on engineering projects of a grade and a character
which indicate to the board that the applicant may be
competent to practice engineering.

The April, 2007 newsletter has some clarification language

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/le_2007_04.pdf

A. The term “acceptable upper-level undergraduate or graduate-level coursework” used
in Section 130.10 C.1.c of the Model Law is interpreted to mean the following:
1. In technical topic areas, acceptable coursework shall be
a. A combination of upper-level undergraduate and graduate-level courses or
all graduate-level courses in engineering, sciences, or mathematics at institutions
that have a program or programs accredited by EAC/ABET; and/or
b. Such courses that are equivalent in intellectual rigor and learning assessment
to upper-level undergraduate and/or graduate-level courses offered at institutions
that have a program or programs accredited by EAC/ABET.
2. In professional practice topic areas, acceptable coursework shall be courses
related to skills directly relevant to the individual’s practice, including but not
limited to the following: communications, contract law, economics, engineering
management, ethics, finance, institutional management, physical asset management,
project management, public policy, and quality management. Such courses
shall be equivalent in intellectual rigor and learning assessment to upper-level
undergraduate and/or graduate courses offered at institutions that have a
program or programs accredited by EAC/ABET.
B. At least 20 of the 30 credits shall consist of coursework as defined in 230.15 A.1
above. At least 10 credits of the coursework in the technical topic area shall be
graduate-level coursework.
C. The term “approved course provider” used in Section 130.10 C.1.c in the Model Law
is interpreted to mean an institution or organization that offers courses meeting the
definitions of acceptable coursework in Section 230.15 A.1 and/or Section 230.15
A.2 as defined above. Such institutions shall offer EAC/ABET-accredited programs.
Such organizations shall offer courses accredited by an alternative NCEES-approved
accrediting body.
D. The term “credit” as used above is defined as 1 semester hour or its equivalent.

On page 6 of the December, 2007 NCEES Newsletter

http://www.ncees.org/licensure/licensure_exchange/le_2007_12.pdf

there is some information about the Bachelors +30 Task Force.

A couple of the other newsletters talk about the declining performance of engineering schools (both decreasing the number of hours required for a BS and increasing the non-technical courses required), and instead of a campaign to fix the system they want to make post-BS education mandatory. It is kind of like PDH on steroids.

David

 

[Sideswiper]

I thinking passing the FE exam to become a registered EIT (Engineer In Training) and getting engineering experience under supervision of a PE is enough to sit for the PE exam.

Maybe you could add a continuing education requirement to the EIT license, where you could get your hours lots of different ways.

It doesn't matter to me personally, because I have a master's degree. But I don't think a candidate needs graduate level classes to be a PE.

 

[HgTX]

Wouldn't the gap between what one should ideally know and what one had time for in a 4-year program (presumably what this requirement is supposed to make up for) vary quite a bit from discipline to discipline (or subdiscipline)?

And if they're going to go this route, why not go (back) to 5-year undergrad programs?

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[dicksewerrat]

Some people like to equate book learning with actual work experience and learning in the field. They seem to think that those with Masters and PHD's are better engineers than us old guys.

Richard A. Cornelius, P.E.

http://WWW.amlinereast.com

 

[zdas04]

If you read through the NCEES newsletters, the people who are active in NCEES feel that an Engineering undergraduate degree has become inadequate and rather than pushing ABET to start setting standards that require a "return to adequacy" they are proposing that the tiny subset of the population that gets PE's get more education to compensate.

What scares me is that the vast majority of engineers never take the PE exam so is NCEES really just accepting that most engineers will be inadequately educated according to what NCEES considers to be objective standards? This is a very scary direction for the industry to take.

David

 

[AutoXer]

Could this be their thinking?

"What would raise my pay as a PE? I've got it... decrease supply of PEs to increase demand. We could make it harder, more time consuming and more expensive if we require 30 extra credit hrs to sit for the exam. That should deter some folk from even considering taking the test."

I work in an industrial factory, so having a PE didn't help me out much. However, since I qualified to take the exam, I took it anyway(passed on 1st attempt). If I would have beeen required to have 30 more credit hrs, I don't think I would have even considered it.

 

[zdas04]

That sounds like the "conspiracy theory of engineering policies". You really should go to the NCESS web site and search on this topic. The articles are so self-important and self-serving that you get a good insight into a really sick process.

One guy filled two pages with his reminiscences of starting engineering school (I think he said in the '50s) and the dean doing the old chestnut of "look at the guy on your right ... only one of you will be here at the end". Then he went on to say that "in his day" you needed 145 hours to get a BS and no more than 20 of the hours could be from outside of engineering (I guess math, Chemistry, and Physics were in the engineering departments back then) and now it is less than 120 total hours and 45 of those must be outside of engineering. His conclusion was that new graduates today are simply unprepared to assume the prestigious mantel of "PROFESSIONAL ENGINEER". It was truly garbage, but he sure sounded sincere.

Anyone who is outraged over this (I have both my PE and MS so it doesn't affect my life) should get involved with NCEES.

David

 

[Lion06]

I don't know any undergrad engineering degree that reuires less than 120. Mine was 132 and most are right in that range. That is only 4 classes different than 145.
As zdas points out, some of what is considered outside of engineering today was apparently not back then (or else there is no way to have only 15 credits outside of engineering. Just calc I & II, matrices, diff. eq. would suck up that 15 and leave no space for chem, physics (and let's not forget the dreaded humanities and english classes.

 

[electricpete]

Pretty bizarre. What does it say about ABET that an ABET-accredited engineering degree doesn't satisfy the educational requirements for a PE?

=====================================
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[JStephen]

I think it's the wrong approach. If "they" feel the extra education is necessary, it should be included in the BS programs, not required beyond that.

 

[DRC1]

A P.E means you are competent to practice engineering. I think a masters is great, as well as a PhD. But neither are needed to be a competent engineer. Most of the problems that surface in design are really boneheaded mistakes. It is rarely if ever beccuase of some small technical mistake. The biggest problem is that engineers are more and more dependent on codes and software because the billing system does not allow them to spend time reflecting on their work or getting involved in the construction. More education will not fix the problem. I propose that an apprentice program be developed for the 4 yearsthat allows the canidate a little variety of exposure to different aspects of the work

 

[zdas04]

Preaching to the choir DRC1. Make those points to NCEES.

David

 

[BRGENG]

ASCE made a big push for this, they say because undergraduate degree’s have less engineering hours then they use too. Reality is that Grad school enrollment has dropped this will require students to go to Grad School ($$$’s for Colleges) and do research for a thesis paper ($$$’s for Colleges). ASCE pushed for this since Civil Engineering graduates have the highest percentage PE’s. As we all know the majority of higher ranked and active ASCE members are Professors. Great time to get a PhD and start teaching, enrollment will soon spike in grad school.

If the goal is to require more engineering classes then have ABET increase their required amount of hours. Or have schools reduce general education hours that only exist to fund programs that do not have enough students to survive on their own.

 

[DRC1]

So, this came out about 5 years ago. I admit, I didn't like it but didn't think much of it, assuming this would kick around for a little bit and die an unnoticed death. Guess I was wrong. So - How and where do we voice an opinion ain an effective and meaniful way?