BS + 30hrs (a new PE requirement) 8

[AutoXer]

What does everyone think about the upcoming requirement to have a BS Eng degree + 30 credit hours in order to sit for the PE exam? As a new PE (passed last April), I don't have a strong opinion on the subject. It seems like a pretty big change.

 

[Gymmeh]

HgTX, Even so, you can't compare engineering credits with other less intense majors.
For example, I took fluids as at 3 credit hrs with a 4 hr long lab season and was very happy with my C+

Then I took intro to architecture for 4 credit hrs, 3 other engineering friends of mine sat in the back and did our homework for heat transfer or read the newspaper… and ace’d the class.

The quality of education is very relative, and my hardest professor always said... their are people that make it through the system, but you can only fool so many people, especially when there is money involved. If you’re honest and work hard, the cream always rises to the top.

 

[rbcoulter]

The intent here was to do something about the falling standards in engineering education which I agree has happened particularly in regards to fewer technical courses mandated.

The problem is the proposed solution. By stating that minimum education requirements is ABET BS + 30 implies that ALL those who have only ABET BS may not be eligible to get an engineering license regardless of what tests they have passed & experience they already have. If the problem is the ABET engineering program going deficient at some point (say between 1950 and 2012), why not define that as the cutoff point? For example, say that all engineering ABET degrees after 2010 will need the additional 30 to apply for an engineering license. Or why not correct this through ABET? Also, graduate engineering school, historically, emphasizes engineering research as opposed to engineering practice so it doesn't seem like the appropriate remedy to me.

It seems as those the bulk of potential engineering license applicants are getting punished because of weakening ABET standards (which practicing engineers do not control) in recent years. Is that fair?

 

[Gymmeh]

It is really the ABET's fault? Or is it the market pressing the engineering programs to incorporate more non-engineering related class work? Obviously if there is a greater demand for people with a generic engineering back ground, then there is a need for the strong mathematical/computational engineering ability, the Universities are going to produce more generic engineers. As annoying as the saying is, this is capitalism.

I had to take a class on the sociology of small groups as it pertained to engineering, because the feed back from “the field and big companies” was that too many engineers where not good in social situations. The professor complained how stupid the course was because it was obviously taking away from “engineering”.

 

[rbcoulter]

I agree with the professor.

 

[garrettk]

Hg,

The incentive of "liking it" has not been working if you look at the number of graduates coming out versus the number firms looking to hire.

So now we are going to tell a prospective engineering student that in order to sit for your P.E. exam a B.S. degree isn't worth a thing? Only a stepping stone? Give me a break.

By forcing people to basically have a masters degree to get a Stamp you will drain the pool of prospective engineers even further.

The board is absolutely wrong on this one. A B.S. degree from an ABET acredited school plus the 4 years of experience is fine. A degree is only a learning permit - it's the experience you get on the job that makes you an engineer.

I guess I'm a bit biased on this as I "ONLY" have a B.S. degree but seem to be doing just fine after over 13 years of experience.

 

[HgTX]

If there's already a shortage, then there's already a problem that has nothing to do with too many academic requirements. If you pay enough, no shortage. (Coincidentally, I just read an article this afternoon about how Hyundai (I think it was Hyundai) has no problems finding welders despite the welder shortage because "we pay a lot".) If pay isn't the problem, then find that problem and address it. If the problem is addressed well enough, an extra year of school won't be that much of a deterrent.

Not that I'm saying the extra year of school is the best solution, just that it's not all that bad.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Lion06]

HgTX-

I think you say that "an extra year of school won't be that much of a deterrent" as if only kids going to college right out of high school should be afforded the opportunity.
There are plenty of engineers (myself included) who had to work their way through college while supporting a family.
I can say very confidently that an extra year (2-3 years when going part time) would have been a huge deterrent.
Maybe to the profession as a whole (for kids coming right out of high school) it wouldn't be much of a deterrent, but you would be alienating a huge pool of potential candidates.

 

[DonPhillips]

My son's geomatics engineering degree is not exactly the same as my civil, but he took many of the same classes. He is taking surverying and geography classes instead of dynamics, concrete, steel, etc. I think the difference was the extra classes beyond the basic list is no longer required. I'll have to look up the structrual curriculum to do a comparision.

Don Phillips

http://worthingtonengineering.com

 

[Maui]

I applied to the licensing board in New York State to sit for the FE and PE exams in 2004 at the age of 40. I was informed that my Physics and Mathematics BS degrees were only worth 1 credit toward the 12 credits that I needed to have in order to qualify for the PE exam. The board representative made it clear that my MS degree in Mechanical and Aerospace Sciences, which was earned from an ABET accredited engineering college at a major US University, was worth nothing toward qualifying me to sit for these exams, but a BS degree from the same program was worth 8 credits. They also informed me that my Ph.D. in Materials Science, which was earned in the same engineering college, was worth nothing. My work experience is what qualified me to sit for these exams.

The new NCEES rules that have been discussed here are inconsistent with the perspective expressed by the state agency I had to deal with. It appears that if these new rules are adopted by the states then engineers will have to take steps toward earning an advanced degree such as a Master's degree in the future if they expect to be allowed to earn their PE. My own experience in going through this process makes it very clear to me that the state board in New York considers advanced education in engineering to be essentially worthless.

Maui

 

[HgTX]

Maui--that situation comes down to ABET accreditation pure and simple, not so much how good they think your education is. For reasons I will never comprehend, ABET allows accreditation of either undergraduate or graduate program but not both, and most schools choose to have their undergrad program accredited. Since accreditation is the be-all and end-all of what counts toward your license, they will value the accredited undergraduate program but not the unaccredited graduate program.

If this MS requirement catches on, it will be interesting to see if there are any changes to how accreditation is handled with regard to graduate programs.

On the subject of deterrents and number of years of school--if number of years of school were the only factor, we would have no doctors, no lawyers, no architects.

Hg

Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[Lion06]

Well, to be completely honest, there is quite a bit more financial incentive in those fields, isn't there?

 

[HgTX]

That is a large part of my point. There isn't a shortage of engineers, there's a shortage of engineers willing to work at today's engineering salaries (as wiser others have already noted).

Hg


Eng-Tips policies: faq731-376

 

[garrettk]

Hg,

Your example of the welders at Hyundai is great - except for the issue that companies set wages and don't have a say in the standards the NCEES sets. Eventually salaries may come around if the shortage of engineers continued, but maybe not.

The example of doctors and lawyers isn't fair as coming out of school, both of those professions can expect to make twice to three times the salary of an engineer.

If NCEES doesn't think the B.S. degree is sufficient anymore they should address the ABET accrededation process and start putting institutions on probation and/or recommending changes to the programs to bring them back in line with expectations. Don't make the student suck up the extra cost and time to join the work force - that's not fixing the problem simply shifting the blame.

If an ABET acredited B.S. degree was fine 10, 15, 20+ years ago, why should it not be ok now? Hold the Colleges and Universities accountable.

 

[zdas04]

Perception is a funny thing. NALP reports (

http://www.nalp.org/content/index.php?pid=520)

that average starting salaries for lawyers going into firms with 25 or fewer attorney's (i.e., most new grads) is $62k.

The Colorado School of Mines reports that 100% of 2007 Petroleum Engineering grads got job offers with an average BSPE Starting salary $70k (

http://www.mines.edu/Academic/petroleum/).

Makes you wonder about the statement

The example of doctors and lawyers isn't fair as coming out of school, both of those professions can expect to make twice to three times the salary of an engineer.

David

 

[JAE]

I think petroleum engineers are an exception. They tend to make pretty good money.

 

[GregLocock]

Starting salaries

UK:

http://www.onrec.com/content2/news.asp?ID=12540

"Engineering again proves the most highly paid graduate profession, with an average starting salary of £21,681 - 7% above average graduate pay. "

USA:

http://www.northwestern.edu/careers...Salaries_by_Job_Function_compared_to_NACE.pdf

Engineers median 55, legal, 40 (by eyeball)

Australia:

http://www.graduatecareers.com.au/content/download/2643/10595/file/Grad Files 2005.pdf

Engineers 40-63 law 41 medicine 48

So, two or three times?



Cheers

Greg Locock

SIGlease see FAQ731-376 for tips on how to make the best use of Eng-Tips.

 

[Lion06]

zdas-
That very same link also has the average STARTING salary for all lawyers (in all firms) at 95K. That is right around double what an engineer starts at.

 

[zdas04]

The top Oil & Gas companies are starting the top Pet Eng and Chem Eng grads at over $100k. There are markets in the US where ME's are starting at over $85k.

The US Department of Labor Bureau of Labor Statistics (

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos027.htm)

shows a table of the 2007 average starting salary for various flavors of engineer--Agricultural, Architectural. and Environmental were under $50k, Petroleum was over $60k. I guess you can call that half what the average attorney makes, and I'm pretty sure that the top 5% of lawyers start higher than the top 5% of engineers.

My point is that a high-quality Engineer willing to move to a crappy location can make about the same as a lawyer willing to go where the work is (which tends to be high-cost metro areas). Most ABET engineering schools brag about getting offers for all of their graduates, Law Schools don't make that claim.

I've never felt underpaid, nor have I envied lawyers for their compensation.

David

 

[Lion06]

zdas-
You don't have to be a certain kind of lawyer willing to move to a crappy location to make the 95k. That is the average starting slaary for ALL lawyers. That is well above the average starting salary for all engineers. I was making 65k/year in manufacturing before I finished school to be an engineer. That doesn't mean that manufacturing is a lucrative as engineering.

 

[zdas04]

OK, I give. One other anecdote--I know a partner in a small law firm in Northwest New Mexico who was bragging the other day about hiring a new associate at $45k. Engineers in this area start at nearly than twice that. Who should envy whom

David