Can engineers engineer safety... 1

[JohnRBaker]

I know this doesn't look like it belongs here, but I'm not sure where else to post it since I think the subject matter deserves to be discussed, and besides, once you read the item you'll see that it's indirectly related to the pedestrian bridge failure in Florida. Note that I didn't post this in that thread because A, it's already too long, and B, to get any sort of traction, it would have to distract from the discussion already underway there, thus becoming an off-topic pain in the arse.

Anyway, my question is, "Can engineers engineer safety?" Now I'm not talking about making a machine or a building safe, but rather to try and accomplish what the article is talking about; to engineer our surroundings so as to make it safe for individuals, in this case, to reduce the incident of pedestrian deaths on America's streets and roadways.

Why This State Thinks Engineers Can Save Pedestrians’ Lives

Nearly 6,000 pedestrians were killed in 2016 — the highest toll since the early 1990’s. The problem is increasingly concentrated in certain states.

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entr...-save-pedestrians_us_5afafc26e4b0b61057a3bc52

Now if someone can suggest a better forum for this topic to be discussed, please let me know and I'll gladly ask that this thread be moved forthwith.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
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[GregLocock]

Third try. Not engineers alone, but this graph is no accident (pun intended)

https://www.dutchreach.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/NL-Road-Deaths-by-yr-mode.png

Lopen=pedestrians

Cheers

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[jrs87]

JohnRBaker, you said "arse". I'm telling

There was a push for pedistrain safe cars in the 70's. It falled, cars too ugly.

Why do urban folk get all the attention? Agricultural is dangerous too.

The linked article mentions ABC as safety improvement. It is I suppose, but ABC covers a very wide range of sub methods with different levels of danger. And why does everything need to have a label?

Engineers can design for safety, have you heard any boilers explode lately? But engineers alone are not responsible for risk vs benefit decisions we all make.

 

[MFJewell]

Isn't that kind of what human factors engineers do? They analyze how humans can muck things up so the hazard can be engineered out?

 

[ACtrafficengr]

MFJewell, yes, there are a lot of people doing just that.

Yes, most crashes are caused by the loose nut behind the wheel. Something like 85% of vehicle crashes have at least one human contributing factor, mainly driver error. But what causes driver error? A lot of researchers have worked on that question, and they have some answers. The problem is getting design engineers to apply them.

All civil engineers should be familiar with the Highway Capacity Manual, which predicts traffic flow performance based on geometric design. Too few know about the Highway Safety Manual, which does the same thing for safety performance. There is also the Interactive Highway Safety Design Model, which is the companion software to the HSM.

Penetration of the HSM into the profession has been minimal, at least in my area. I'd like to see it's use become standard practice for highway design and commercial development projects. A developer can't get a project of any size approved without a traffic capacity impact study, but I've yet to see more than a cursory traffic safety impact study. In my opinion, I'd rather keep people from getting hurt and accept a more delay than the other way around.

 

[VEBill]

There was a push for pedestrian safe[r] cars in the 70's. It failed, cars too ugly.

No. It continues and is achieving some progress:

https://www.euroncap.com/en/vehicle...xplained/vulnerable-road-user-vru-protection/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pedestrian_safety_through_vehicle_design

Cars such as the Mercedes E-Class include some design features to improve pedestrian safety.

http://media.daimler.com/marsMediaS...on-impact-with-a-pedestrian.xhtml?oid=9361563

They're not usually considered to be ugly cars, but that's a matter of opinion.

 

[drawoh]

JohnRBaker,

Here in Toronto, Canada, we have had an increase in pedestrian deaths. A large proportion of the victims are elderly. A big problem may be drivers texting. Fast, multi-lane arterial roads in the suburbs are difficult for pedestrians to cross. This is especially dangerous at night when visibility is not good and drivers are less experienced than rush-hour drivers, probably tired, and possibly drunk as well. Historically, one of the most dangerous intersections in Toronto is Don Mills and Eglinton. Both roads have six lanes, and there may just be too much stuff for left-turning drivers to keep track of. Possibly, elderly pedestrians are not as good at jumping out of the way.

This is where you do multi-variate medical research, examine as many factors as possible and look for correlations. If you get a chance, look for Arthur Kellerman's study Gun Ownership as a Risk Factor for Homicide in the Home. Ignore his agenda and conclusions. He studied and correlated at lot of data, and the results are interesting. This is a useful format.

--
JHG

 

[EdStainless]

Designing systems so that the right way/safe way to use them is the obvious and easiest is a very big challenge, just ask Capt. E. Murphy.
Forcing both drivers and pedestrians to pay attention is the first step, and this may mean making things 'not easier'.

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[dgallup]

As mentioned in the article linked in the OP, it's not just distracted drivers, distracted pedestrians are a large part of the problem. Even if they are not actively texting and staring at their phones, many are using earphones and thus don't hear the approaching traffic. There is even an increase in the number of pedestrian deaths from trains which I find mind blowing.

No doubt there are a lot of bad intersections and I find it amazing that anyone ever tries to cross six lane highways on foot. However, an awful lot of pedestrians just jaywalk indiscriminately. I drive past a big church on my way home every day that has it's parking lot on the opposite side of the road from the church. This congregation must be big sinners because they need to meet several times a week in the evening. There are cross walks at the intersection with the timed "walk/don't walk" lights that should be very safe. There are two more cross walks in the middle of the block, frequently with a patrolman present directing traffic. Never the less, the vast majority of the congregation seem to think it is perfectly acceptable to just bolt out from behind a parked car and cross the street anywhere they choose.

----------------------------------------

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[bones206]

I'm a big believer in designing things - roads, structures, machines, laws, governments, or anything that people interact with - for the way people actually behave, as opposed to how people ideally should behave.

 

[IRstuff]

It's certainly within an engineer's purview to analyze the balance between safety and whatever other design performance factors are required. Nevertheless, there can never be ZERO deaths, unless there are ZERO car miles traveled.

Many examples of pedestrian deaths in the article are not controllable from a roadway design perspective, and clearly, alcohol-related incidents have remained intractable. Likewise, distracted walking has become an increasingly prevalent problem. Overall, the US has done relatively well, for whatever reasons, until rather recently:

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[bones206]

Overall, the US has done relatively well, for whatever reasons, until rather recently

In my opinion, cell phone usage while driving is clearly influencing traffic safety in recent years. Look around at while stopped at any given traffic light; half the drivers will be compulsively doing something with their phone. Nobody is going to convince those people to change their behavior because they are addicted and complacent. Just have to design around that 50% who aren't paying attention. I think engineers definitely can engineer safety if they choose to design to the lowest common denominator, although it may come at some expense to others who are behaving more ideally. But of course there is a limit to how much pre-planning and design can prevent random incidents. Unless we all start living in bubbles.

 

[djhurayt]

Its a state law (in SC) that traffic must give right of way to a pedestrian in a cross walk. If there is a cross walk right there and they don't use it, are they fair game?

 

[drawoh]

djhurayt,

Here in Toronto, pedestrian cross-walks are well lit. If you cross them at night, you are visible to the approaching cars, unless they are texting on their cell phones. You are not necessarily visible anywhere else. People walking on public streets need to lose the headphones. You need to see and hear what is going on around you.

I grew up in (relatively) downtown Toronto, and I am accustomed to jaywalking. This requires some perception of 3D[ ]relationships of moving objects. I wonder if people from small towns and the suburbs have acquired this?

--
JHG

 

[BridgeSmith]

I may be opening a can o' worms here, but I think crosswalks give pedestrians a false sense of security. I've seen too many pedestrians who act like there's some magical force field at play in a crosswalk that makes it ok to step out in front of a car driving down the street. It might be safer without crosswalks, so that pedestrians would look instead of just assuming they're safe.

 

[BridgeSmith]

"This requires some perception of 3D relationships of moving objects. I wonder if people from small towns and the suburbs have acquired this?"

The small town I grew up in had no crosswalks. So yeah, if you wanted to cross the street, you had to be able to judge the vehicles coming towards you. There's also a wider variety of vehicles and wide range of speeds to contend with. You learn to give alot more space to the highschoolers speeding to lunch at noon than what's needed for the farm trucks putting along at 6:30 in the morning. Not to mention the highways out of town...

 

[bones206]

There might be something to that logic. I've spent time in large asian cities where people are used to jaywalking in heavy traffic and the people driving are used to being on the lookout for people crossing. I guess in some ways chaos can force people to adapt their behavior for the better. I think the danger comes in when a specific situation differs from the norm that people have become accustomed to.

 

[IRstuff]

Note, also, that driving speeds have substantially increased, due to revocation of the 55 mph law as well as people just driving faster. Luckily, ABS compensates for that, assuming the driver is paying attention.

In California, the pedestrian has the right of way, even if they are jaywalking.

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[drawoh]

HotRod10,

A high-schooler speeding to lunch is a car. A street downtown in an older (by North American standards) city like New York or Toronto has traffic. You don't have the option of waiting for the car to go by. You look for openings.

--
JHG

 

[BridgeSmith]

"A high-schooler speeding to lunch is a car."

But 50 speeding high-schoolers on the same street at the same time is a disaster in the making, and a significant hazard to anyone attempting to cross the street (or walking on the sidewalk in some cases).