Can lithium batteries power all cars in America? 23

[Space car]

Can lithium batteries power all cars in America? The answer may be “Yes,” but we must change direction if we are to have any chance. Based on recent history, after the coronavirus pandemic is over, US new car sales will return to about 17.5 million units per year. When we get to a first year for all-electric car production, how much lithium will be needed? A lithium ion battery contains 0.3 grams of lithium per amp-hour of battery capacity, or about 0.09 kg of lithium per kilowatt-hour (kWh)

https://batteryguy.com/kb/knowledge-base/how-to-calculate-the-lithium-content-in-a-battery/

Lithium mines measure their output in kilograms of lithium carbonate. In terms of mine output, it takes 0.96 kg of lithium carbonate per kWh of battery capacity. Assume each car has an average battery capacity of 60 kWh. Multiplying by 17.5 million cars, the amount of lithium mine output needed will be 1.0 million metric tonnes of lithium carbonate for each year of new EVs
In 2020, total world mine output of lithium carbonate is projected to be about 0.7 million metric tonnes. The world is now scrambling to find more lithium. There are more problems:
• US auto sales are only about 22% of vehicle sales worldwide.
• Power companies are aggressively purchasing Lithium batteries for the grid.
Some say that science can solve the problem—"another, even better battery will be found that may not even need lithium.” Well, no, that isn’t the situation. No other element carries as much charge for its weight as does ionized lithium and the lithium ion cell produces a prodigious 3.7 volts. Current batteries obtain about 85% of the theoretical limit of energy storage for their lithium content. Future improvements will only be in battery structure, weight, and charging speed.

CONCLUSION: Power companies don’t need light-weight batteries—they MUST use something else! America must vastly increase domestic mining and processing of lithium and other strategic materials such as cobalt, nickel, aluminum, and rare earth metals needed for an electrified economy. Plus we can learn to be more thrifty. The auto industry can make more efficient electric vehicles that need only half as much battery capacity.

 

[MikeDraque]

probably run out of materials soon

 

Unfortunately stateside the greenies have had us regressing for half a century, removing cheap hydro power to "reclaim" nature

Have you seen the water level in Lake Mead lately?
Did you know there was a 7-year drought in Northern Québec about a decade ago that cut HQ's capacity significantly?

Nature is doing its own regressing in response to our activities... incidentally, there are few if any sites remaining in the US and Canada for large-scale hydro development. The big one currently under construction in remote Labrador is a total boondoggle.

BTW, who are these Stateside 'greenies'?


"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[JohnRBaker]

With respect to potential supplies of Lithium for electric vehicle batteries, this might prove interesting:

Lithium production could save California's Salton Sea

The lithium brine reserves under the Salton Sea could support the entire US EV industry for years.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/lithium-production-salton-sea-california-ev-batteries/

Here a shot from the last time my wife and I were out at the Salton Sea. There's no much there, but we had spent the weekend in Palm Desert and this was one of our side trips:

April 2019 (Sony a6000)

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

The only question is "can I have my cake and eat it too?"

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[3DDave]

Anyone saying they have a good plan that will help with the Salton Sea is very likely wrong. The current situation of the Salton Sea is from people having a good plan that went horribly wrong.

So when another engineering exploitation is proposed I think, if the necessary cleanup isn't to be accomplished before any other goal that the necessary cleanup isn't going to get done as every economic excuse will get dragged out as to why they cannot start to reclaim the poison and fertilizer runoff that has made it a toxic nightmare.

 

[JohnRBaker]

Not exactly related to batteries, but this is a proposal for storing excessive electrical energy as potential energy and accessing it later when the demand is higher or renewables are off-line, like at night for solar and low wind days for turbines:

We Can Store Our Excess Renewable Energy In An Energy Vault

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jamesc...le-energy-in-an-energy-vault/?sh=6c0004733334

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

Debating the potential of EVs to save the planet * as an alternative to IC vehicles is like debating which of sucrose or glucose-fructose in your soda pop is unhealthier.

* I loathe that expression.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[hokie66]

What about 'game-changer'? Like that one?

 

[GregLocock]

John - that is actually a device for extracting dollar bills from wallets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGGOjD_OtAM

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[SnTMan]

Re Energy Vault, some discussion here: thread1618-488786

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand

 

[cranky108]

Just to be an ass, why do we need for every car/truck to be electric? Does bio-diesel work? Are there other fuels/technologies that can work?
Why the obsession on electric?

To me this looks like someone's pipe dream/ selected solution. There are alternatives, so the answer should be No. Lithium batteries can not power all cars.

But I do like the debate on lithium batteries, as they do have problems that need to be solved.

 

Just to be a messenger (don't shoot me), few of you seem to truly grasp how serious the problem is. Replacing IC vehicles with EVs in the big picture is a halo exercise that just papers over the cracks. We get a warm fuzzy feeling but don't much move the needle.

There is a widespread lack of imagination and a mindset that insists we can technology our way to business as usual. Everyone from engineers to investors to politicians are locked in to that blinkered perspective and an obsolete worldview.

Which is why I don't waste time quibbling over the math of these 'solutions'; nature makes its own calculations.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[moltenmetal]

ironic_metallurgist: dunno. What I hear constantly are:

1) Nirvana fallacy arguments against EVs, intended to justify making NO CHANGE
2) People selling the notion that the only solution to decarbonization is some kind of new puritanism

We DO need to move information instead of people, move people by electrified public mass transport and active transport, and to densify cities around public transport to make that possible. That's a 70+ yr, multi-trillion dollar exercise, which can't happen any quicker without enormous amounts of waste and disruption.

IN the meantime, people living in cities designed AROUND CARS, are going to need cars. And those cars will need to no longer generate toxic tailpipe emissions pointed at people going about their business breathing. And they'll also need to be powered by energy sources which don't generate as much GHG emissions- and hopefully, ultimately, which generate orders of magnitude lower GHG emissions than the current fossil transport option.

We've already achieved that with EVs in Canada, where about 80% of us have access already to a grid to recharge them from which is under 40 g CO2/kWh.

The materials issues will sort themselves out. CATL has announced a sodium ion battery with excellent cycle life, a cathode containing no rare metals, and a hard carbon anode. Energy density is already a match with lithium iron phosphate. Plenty good enough for EVs. Assuming CATL aren't lying or over-selling what they have, we'll see those batteries in cars a few years from now.

(

http://www.spitfireresearch.com)

 

[GregLocock]

The better is the enemy of the good, in other words.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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Epic point miss, both of you. Shocking since there's no agenda and no ambiguity in my post. However you did reinforce my point nicely.

Suggest you try reading it again and reflecting a little longer before attacking.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

[GregLocock]

I understand your point, but think that mm is right to say that just stopping 21st century life so you can be a caveman somewhere isn't a realistic proposal, or even aim.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376

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[SuperSalad]

I don't think IM is suggesting stopping 21st century life, but more along the lines of, we need to realize what 22nd century life needs to look like if we intend to hold the same level of sway as a species that we currently do. Hint: It can't just be 21st century life but shinier.

- Andrew

 

[davefitz]

Regardless of the progress on EV's, there are many other applications of lithium batteries that will continue to be a risk to transport and storage- I doubt any EV's were involved in the walmart fire.

Eventually there will be sufficient progress on EV technology that the consumer's choice between EV and ICE will become a rational decision between their actual life cycle cost to the consumer and not a forced conclusion based on political correctness or effete "lifestyle". At that time I think we will see EV's more integrated into the grid vis a vis charging the EV will be scheduled to match the daytime max PV generation and household load centers will be upgraded to enable powering of household low duty circuits with the EV during times of low grid power availability. In the meantime, "another one rides the bus".

"...when logic, and proportion, have fallen, sloppy dead..." Grace Slick

 

I understand your point, but think that mm is right to say that just stopping 21st century life so you can be a caveman somewhere isn't a realistic proposal, or even aim.

...widespread lack of imagination

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."

 

...consumer's choice ... rational decision

How much 'choice' do we actually have? Coke or Pepsi? Demopublicans or Republicrats? Drive or else stay home? This are not facetious questions, they are at the core of our self-delusion.

It is well understood that we do not generally make rational choices, and that advertisers only try to appeal to our emotions. (I am aware the eng-tips constituency is skewed away from the mean.) Over the last century+ the political propaganda has developed hand in hand with advertising technology, by the same people. It's a fascinating history that I recommend researching.

Since this strikes at the heart of American individualist dogma, I expect incoming; in fact I can already recite the responses.

"Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but they are not entitled to their own facts."