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Can lithium batteries power all cars in America? 23

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Space car

Automotive
Jan 24, 2019
7
Can lithium batteries power all cars in America? The answer may be “Yes,” but we must change direction if we are to have any chance. Based on recent history, after the coronavirus pandemic is over, US new car sales will return to about 17.5 million units per year. When we get to a first year for all-electric car production, how much lithium will be needed? A lithium ion battery contains 0.3 grams of lithium per amp-hour of battery capacity, or about 0.09 kg of lithium per kilowatt-hour (kWh)
Lithium mines measure their output in kilograms of lithium carbonate. In terms of mine output, it takes 0.96 kg of lithium carbonate per kWh of battery capacity. Assume each car has an average battery capacity of 60 kWh. Multiplying by 17.5 million cars, the amount of lithium mine output needed will be 1.0 million metric tonnes of lithium carbonate for each year of new EVs
In 2020, total world mine output of lithium carbonate is projected to be about 0.7 million metric tonnes. The world is now scrambling to find more lithium. There are more problems:
• US auto sales are only about 22% of vehicle sales worldwide.
• Power companies are aggressively purchasing Lithium batteries for the grid.
Some say that science can solve the problem—"another, even better battery will be found that may not even need lithium.” Well, no, that isn’t the situation. No other element carries as much charge for its weight as does ionized lithium and the lithium ion cell produces a prodigious 3.7 volts. Current batteries obtain about 85% of the theoretical limit of energy storage for their lithium content. Future improvements will only be in battery structure, weight, and charging speed.

CONCLUSION: Power companies don’t need light-weight batteries—they MUST use something else! America must vastly increase domestic mining and processing of lithium and other strategic materials such as cobalt, nickel, aluminum, and rare earth metals needed for an electrified economy. Plus we can learn to be more thrifty. The auto industry can make more efficient electric vehicles that need only half as much battery capacity.
 
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Coldness kills LI-ion batteries, so where I live they are only good for part of the year. When those batteries are not being used that need to be kept in a heated garage.

Jerry J.
UGV5-NX1884
 
Coldness doesn't "kill" lithium ion batteries. Trying to charge or discharge them when too cold can kill them though.
 
Hi Jerry
On the surface, what you say is true enough (except for the exaggeration) but the auto makers have not thrown up their hands and quit in disgrace. They simply introduced temperature management systems into the battery packs. While plugged in, the cell temps are regulated to prevent cold charge/discharge damage. This takes care of the worst of the problem for the majority of US drivers.


 
An interesting bit of news:

Tesla's dirty little secret: Its net profit doesn't come from selling cars


This sort of reminds me of where I worked when I first graduated fro engineering school. We had developed this machine which used a significant number of a particular item which was expendable, that is, they would wear out. It was what was called a 'depanner', for taking bread and rolls out of baking pans in large commercial bakeries:

bakery_revolutin_img026_rxglpe.jpg


Now we were one of three or four companies who made these machines and they all used basically the same type of silicon rubber 'vacuum cup':

depanners_u5orir.jpg


Now the issue was that the company I worked for held the patent for using 'vacuum cups to lift food products'. And since this was, as I said, an expendable item which had to be replaced often (over the course of year, a typical high-production facility would go through four or five sets of cups per machine). Now they weren't that expensive and they became basically a commodity, that is no matter who you brought them from, they were identical. Now we didn't manufacture the cups themselves, that wasn't what we did. And since these cups could actually be used for applications that did not involve picking up a 'food product', we actually had no claim to the cups themselves, just how they were used. Of course, when we sold one of our depanners, no big deal because it was our patent, but if one of our competitors sold one of their depanners, we collected a royalty of $200 (note that this was back in the 60's and 70's). And it wasn't just depanners, as there were a couple of companies, for example, that made machines that picked-up eggs and placed them in those paper mache cartons, at least they were paper mache back then. But since eggs were 'food products', we collected royalties from them as well. Whenever there was a trade show where machinery was on display for use in any sort of food production or processing industry, we would always send one of our people with a copy of our patent and some blank contracts. Every once in awhile, a new 'customer' would show-up.

And then there was the spares business, and since, as I said, all the cups were the same, we also made money selling replacement cups to these large bakeries whether they had one of our depanners or one from one of our competitors. Anyway, it was a sweet business, but of course, that was over 40 years ago, so I assume that the patents have expired by now.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
Big difference. Government wasn't forcing 'customers' to pay you, but those eleven State governments are forcing the other companies to pay Tesla.
 
It is funny that the MSM has only just caught onto this. It's been in the financials for YEARS, ever since the first quarter they announced a profit.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
No one is forced to pay Tesla - they happen to be a leading manufacturer of electric vehicles, but any manufacturer is eligible. The manufacturers can build their own electric vehicles if they choose to, but most have failed to make suitable investments, waiting instead for some other company to work out the bugs. If it offsets the risks Tesla has taken, that seems fair.
 
I'm not saying they shouldn't sell them, they should. And yes, the credits were 'designed' as a way to promote EV development, so to that extent they've worked. It just puts all the silly headlines about Tesla profits into perspective. Their cars are sold at a loss, if you use the usual accounting procedures, so of course no OEM, with less tolerant shareholders, is going to try to compete seriously.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
At least ONE large OEM is talking about where it would like to go with respect to producing electric vehicles:

GM to go all-electric by 2035, phase out gas and diesel engines

GM launched its first long-range electric car, the Chevy Bolt, in 2016.



John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
A widely misunderstood press release. I aspire to lose 10 kg this year, GM aspires (but does not promise) to have zero tailpipe emissions for new (ie not ongoing models) light duty vehicles (ie not work trucks)in 2035. "an aspiration to eliminate tailpipe emissions from new light-duty vehicles by 2035"

You can fool all of the people some of the time.



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
Not just GM either, pretty much all the automakers making that noise...

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
I DID say that GM was "talking about where it would like to go with respect to producing electric vehicles."


John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
The MSM headlines are the ones that don't understand it. Detroit News 'pledges', CNN "sell only", cnbc "exclusively offer" , cbs "eliminate", the independent (UK) "to stop", reuters "to end"



Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
I don't think that the bottleneck will be in Lithium, but rather on all those rare earth elements that are very difficult and polluting to extract and are...rare (pun intended).

These elements are, at the current level of scientific knowledge and from the little that I know of batteries, the drivers of battery efficiencies and lifespan...
 
And those rare earth elements are also used in those very efficient, both in terms of size and power, electric motors used in EV's.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
Technical issues aside, I keep wondering if ordinary people are going to spend their own money to buy the things if ICE cars are still available, or if they will have to coerced "persuaded".

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
Coercion will be required for ordinary people like me. My next car, like my current one, will have a diesel engine. But then, that may be my last one.
 
I see the Electric Vehicles Council of Australia wants government subsidies for rich people's new cars. I don't think they get the optics. The economics are such that it is a very expensive way of reducing CO2.

Cheers

Greg Locock


New here? Try reading these, they might help FAQ731-376
 
hokie, that's what I'm thinking. I'm not against electric cars but I am against coercion :)

The problem with sloppy work is that the supply FAR EXCEEDS the demand
 
For what it's worth:

The Battery Is Ready to Power the World

After a decade of rapidly falling costs, the rechargeable lithium-ion battery is poised to disrupt industries



John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-Product 'Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without
 
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