Can you even avoid affirmative action employers anymore? 79

[WARose]

I had a buddy talk me into applying to the same place he's working....and I take a look at the place later (nothing like looking after you leap)....and in a company that's 90% male....they've got women in just about ALL the lead positions. I know at least 2 of them.....and they are nowhere near as qualified as some of the other people there.

Is there even a way to avoid this now? (Except at the smaller companies.) I am not anti-female in any way....but this sort of thing has resulted in chaos everywhere I've been that had it.

 

[271828]

You and anyone in this thread who is pandering to you (i.e. trying to have an intelligent discussion / stroking your fragile white male ego) are a complete waste in the engineering profession. Not surprised you didn't get an interview.

Can you imagine what would happen if someone on the anti-AA side had typed something like that? There would be calls for canceling, doxing, or worse.

"Play nice" is only for one side of this debate, right?

 

[WARose]

"Play nice" is only for one side of this debate, right?

Essentially.

 

[phamENG]

No. It's for both all sides. But sadly a lot of people (also on both all sides) have either forgotten or, more likely, were never taught how to have a respectful and intelligent discussion with people they disagree with.

Edit: it's important to realize that in a real debate, there's rarely two sides to anything. Nuance is an important thing and can lead to lots of different stances on some topics.

 

[WARose]

No. It's for both sides. But sadly a lot of people (also on both sides) have either forgotten or, more likely, were never taught how to have a respectful and intelligent discussion with people they disagree with.

I may have been part of the problem (and all apologies)....but if you go back through this thread and look....it was a lot of people coming at me first with a lot of hostility (and charges of bigotry and so forth).

At the risk of sounding like a 5 year old: they started it.

 

[phamENG]

Yep. Most seem to want to see the worst in people...especially on the internet. Combine that with an increasingly toxic atmosphere of identity politics with so many people retreating or being drawn into 'opposing camps' (and not just in the US, it seems), and throwing out a even a mild complaint about affirmative action is taken by one camp as meaning you're a racist and a sexist. I've seen nothing to indicate that you're either...I think you found yourself in a position where somebody who fits into a demographic historically aided by affirmative action was not performing to the standards you would expect someone in their position to meet. I may not agree with some of your or others' conclusions about it, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen to you. And we all need to hear unpopular things every now and then to remind us that the world is a big and varied place.

And hey...at least you have friends...I consider myself a centrist...and you can see where that got me. Both sides hate me!

 

[ATSE]

I have been engaged with eng-tips for many years. In the last 5 years a growing percentage of threads have a social media vibe. Personal attacks to and from people that really don't know each other at all, and have a couple of isolated sentences to form context. Of course, just my perception. Don't ask for documentation.
This isn't Facebook - we can disagree without condemning, name-calling, and demonizing.
There's just a handful of trouble-makers here - please go somewhere else (i.e. back to your tribe on Facebook).

I will just say that at least some of these issues are being discussed somewhere (albeit imperfectly), which is good. At my last 2 jobs (public section + private sector), you couldn't speak common sense or plain facts about affirmative action - heck, you couldn't even mention a relevant but sensitive topic without getting a serious "sensitivity" lecture from your boss with a threat of disciplinary action (how do I know this?).

 

[WARose]

Anybody that would make the comparison [in a now deleted post] of things like the Atlantic Slave trade and Jim Crow to what is being discussed here (and say someone not supporting AA is the equivalent of someone (tacitly at least) supporting slavery).....tells you either [A] how far we've gone off the rails as a society, or how lousy a critical thinker that person is. (Or maybe both.)

But it is not at all surprising.

 

[IRstuff]

Can you even avoid affirmative action employers anymore?

The title of this thread and OP suggests that it would be nearly impossible to find a company that isn't filled with unqualified women in management positions, none of which are true. Otherwise, we'd be falling and tripping over a boatload of misrun and bankrupt companies and we'd have trouble finding a board of directors that wasn't overwhelmingly white and male.

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[WARose]

The title of this thread and OP suggests that it would be nearly impossible to find a company that isn't filled with unqualified women in management positions, none of which are true.

Considering the fact I (when I have worked for others) have typically worked for large EPC outfits that chase (among other things) big government contracts.....that perception is sort of unavoidable considering the fact they openly say they practice AA.

 

[MTNClimber]

Doesn’t federally funded projects require firms with 50 employees or more to have a AA plan? So these large firms have to say they practice AA, openly or just as a footnote on their webpage.

 

[DrZoidberWoop]

@ spieng89. Nice trolling.

 

[IRstuff]

that perception is sort of unavoidable considering the fact they openly say they practice AA.

And yet, we still aren't tripping over a majority of companies run or managed by women, so the whole premise of the title and OP is specious

TTFN (ta ta for now)
I can do absolutely anything. I'm an expert!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg

faq731-376 forum1529 Entire Forum list

http://www.eng-tips.com/forumlist.cfm

 

[271828]

...white male fragility is showing tough in this thread.

Would it be OK with you if someone included "black female _____" in a post? (Fill in the blank with something negative.)

If not, then please explain why the double standard is acceptable.

 

[WARose]

This thread is full of white male privilege. Just imagine a women or POC starting a thread complaining about incompetent white male managers who only got their positions based on nepotism, legacy system, or good ol' boy network. It wouldn't make it 3 posts before getting removed I am sure.

Give me a break. In this day and age? It's open season on white males...or really whites in general (especially southern whites). Do you see any backlash from the mainstream on the use of this "Karen" stereotype? Can you imagine what the backlash would be on a "Keisha" stereotype for black women? I think we all know what that one would be. It wouldn't make it into a M&M commercial.

Coming from a position of privilege will allow you to misinterpret the comment. It's okay to have white male fragility as long as you acknowledge it and work to improve yourself and those who deleted the comment need to work on themselves as well.

The admins canned your comment. Take it up with them. (Maybe you'd like to be shown the door?)

And to brag about getting offers from 2 companies in this busy time for structural engineers is sad.

Still need to work on those reading comprehension skills don't you?

 

[WARose]

And yet, we still aren't tripping over a majority of companies run or managed by women, so the whole premise of the title and OP is specious

Still (either) not reading (and snipping) all of my comments eh?

 

[Tomfh]

I came third in my graduating class. My friend (another guy) came slightly ahead of me. The girl who came first was a long way ahead. The sort of person who'd get 98% in really hard university subjects. She could have done anything on her abilities. Her employer now lauds her as example of their "commitment to diversity", as though they've done her some big favour by hiring a girl. She's reduced to this token, where her greatest value for the company is that she's a woman who can tick a diversity box. She must feel a bit cheated, with people assuming she's a quota hire.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I've known a couple of female coworkers that fell into that 'hole', but that was back in the Midwest. Where I worked in SoCal, that wasn't the case. I guess the biggest reason why was because in our office, which was primarily software development and testing, about 35% - 40% of the professional staff was female, including my boss for several years. There were many truly outstanding contributors who would have never been considered 'token' employees simply because there was no reason to suspect that they were. We were also a fairly ethnically diversified crowd as well, with something like 20+ first languages being spoken other than English. Every thing from Russian, to Hebrew, to Farsi, to German, to Swedish, to Spanish, to Japanese, to Hindi, to Arabic, to Chinese (both Mandarin and Cantonese), to Dutch, to Vietnamese, etc.

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[MTNClimber]

WARose, are there a lot of companies in your area and in your field that have a lot of female higher ups?

I’ve worked at four companies and none of them were structured that way. One company had about zero female principals in the office where I worked but several throughout the company while the other three companies had zero female principals or senior level project managers. So I’ve never been part of a larger company that saw a lot lead positions being taken over by AA mandates. But all the firms were big enough to require an AA plan.

 

[WARose]

WARose, are there a lot of companies in your area and in your field that have a lot of female higher ups?

Yep. (In fact I think I have already indicated that.) The funny part is: I think even they know it's BS. One outfit I use to work for has a lot of "section leads" for various project types (i.e. pulp & paper, government, chemical, etc). And to look at their choices for those leads.....it's just ridiculous. Picking a gal 5-10 years out of college (only a PE in one state, not a SE) vs. a guy with 40 years under his belt in the pulp & paper biz and a SE all over the place? Come on. Even she admitted it was crap. (And I've checked her work before....and I'd have to say I agree.)

So yeah, I've seen it with these eyes.

 

[MTNClimber]

Sorry I missed your experience before. That’s unfortunate and surprising to hear. I wonder why it seems like the norm for your area and not in others?