Can you even avoid affirmative action employers anymore? 79

[WARose]

I had a buddy talk me into applying to the same place he's working....and I take a look at the place later (nothing like looking after you leap)....and in a company that's 90% male....they've got women in just about ALL the lead positions. I know at least 2 of them.....and they are nowhere near as qualified as some of the other people there.

Is there even a way to avoid this now? (Except at the smaller companies.) I am not anti-female in any way....but this sort of thing has resulted in chaos everywhere I've been that had it.

 

[Steel Gal]

BTW, I never had a failure on something I approved, but I was fired several times because I refused to approve something which ultimately failed systems testing.

 

[phamENG]

Steel Gal - it varies by state, but in some states there is a path to getting a PE license without a degree. You may have a tough time of it, though, as all that I am aware of require the experience (can be 10 to 20 years worth without a degree in engineering) has to be under a PE. If you were working with licensed engineers all that time and they're willing to attest to it, you may be able to convince the board. And don't forget, it is often an actual board of appointed engineers who makes the decisions. If you don't fit the bill perfectly, reach out to the board (preferably an actual member rather than staff, though the staff may be able to help) and find out if there is a way to have your 'case' heard. Again it varies by where you are, but some boards have a little more leeway in who they approve than others.

The question of whether or not you're an engineer is a different one altogether and one that is hotly debated here and elsewhere. From the sound of it you qualify to use the title of Engineer within the 'standard' industrial exemption rules found in most states. You can't say you're licensed and you can't offer services to the general public, but you can be an Engineer employed by a company that is properly authorized to provide engineering services.

 

[drawoh]

I have never felt comfortable saying I was an NASA engineer when on my resume...

Up here in Canada, I know a guy who went from a three-year technologist diploma to a professional engineer's license. The Professional Engineers of Ontario handed him a list of courses he needed to take, and he took them. It took time, and a lot of work. Are you willing to tell us what level of training you have?

--
JHG

 

[Steel Gal]

Thank you all for your comments. Keep them coming, they are appreciated. As to what level of training I have had, I don't know because I never compared my eclectic training with a classic college curriculum in engineering.

The short answer is I went from being a janitor at Westinghouse Specialty Metals in 1978 to a quality/systems safety engineer at NASA Goddard Space Flight Center Office of Flight Assurance in 1988. I wrote up inspection (visual and NDT) reports, and repair orders for welding and machining recycled 55 gallon size canisters, braces, and brackets containing various experiments loaded in the cargo bay of each NASA Space Shuttle mission.

This may be amusing to you, but my favorite toy as a little girl before going to first grade in school (no kindergarten) was a miniature duffel bag full of brightly colored blocks. Forget the dolls. Bring on the Tinker Toys, Lincoln Logs, and Erector sets.

As for training, it may have started early. My family had a farm market and I served customers before attending first grade using a weight scale, adding prices, and making change. I was always using math there. I learned the process of "mental arithmetic" an old fashioned way of solving written word problems in third grade. In eighth grade I was selected to participated in an algebra contest in the greater Pittsburgh, PA area where I placed fifth in the region. I finished second in high school completing pre calculus, chemistry, and physics (with no calculator, or slide rule). After high school I stayed with the farm.

But, there was a little secret hidden in my house. For those who appreciate and collect old engineering books (I do), do any one of you have or seen little (3" x 5") engineering handbooks published by the International Correspondence Schools, Scranton, PA? My grandfather (who could fix anything) gave my father a whole box of those books and abandoned them in the attic. When I found them, they secretly became mine. They were difficult at first, but eventually I could read them just like a recipe book in the kitchen.

The turning point towards engineering started after my father died and I got the job at Westinghouse. I recall the application had a test with it in math and mechanical aptitude. Shortly after I was hired, my boss asked if I was interested in advancing to learn the various facets of inspection work needed in the factory. It required hours of training outside my normal work hours and working in the lab during normal work hours creating lab samples, following instructions, performing mechanical and chemical tests on various zirconium alloys destined for nuclear fuel rods. I had someone else show me eddy current testing and ultrasonic testing. This was all in addition to my regular job in the factory processing Inconel steel tubing destined for heat exchangers in nuclear power plants.

Then came the nuclear power plant accident at Three Mile Island in Harrisburg, PA. Stay tuned.

 

[JohnRBaker]

I took one correspondence course my senior year of high school (1964-65), 'Radio - Television & Basic Electronics' (American Technical Society, Chicago) as I wanted to get a head start on college where I intended to get a degree in Electrical Engineering. Well to make a long story short, back in 1965, the course of instruction in Electrical Engineering wasn't what I had expected. I was looking for more in the area of electronics, but back then, my classes covered such topics as calculating transformer loses, balancing wye and delta circuits, setting up 3-phase circuits and estimating transmission loses of high voltage power lines. A year and half later, I transferred to a Mechanical Engineering curriculum and turned my interest in electronics into a sort of hobby (I've still got radios that 'glow in the dark').

John R. Baker, P.E. (ret)
EX-'Product Evangelist'
Irvine, CA
Siemens PLM:
UG/NX Museum:

The secret of life is not finding someone to live with
It's finding someone you can't live without

 

[Sparweb]

You'll get a lot of respect here and in many professional places with skill and a can-do attitude, regardless of the papers you carry. My own career is a blend of that - a lot of what I can do at work is actually self-taught, but it rests on a rigorous framework that came from good schooling too. Every engineer is a blend of these in some proportion or another.

For employment, if you don't have shiny papers, then you often get filtered by a computer before anybody even sees your credentials. Use a more direct approach and (sorry) start lower on the ladder, using your skill to climb higher, faster. Many of the people in my engineering department don't have an engineering degree but they know their stuff from shop-floor work and a mind to learn more all the time. They are good problem-solvers, which university doesn't teach you anyway.

I know people who crawled through the bureaucratic maze of professional accreditation. Without a degree it's a tough road. But if you're restarting your career, it's probably too late to get much benefit from that, maybe 10 years from now. I'd say forget it and focus on what you can do, want to learn, and most interested in. Cross that with contacts you have or can find through one-to-one networking and that can get your opportunity. If you're an independent thinker you may not ever fit into a corporate category, anyway, so looking at the consultants, job shops, problem solver types would be the way to go. A bit like what you said your hubby did, but maybe more tailored to your own strengths.

You've had some good mentors. That may be a clue to how you can best capitalize on your talent.

 

[Steel Gal]

I did have some good mentors along the way, may they all rest in peace. I would like to honor here my bosses direct and indirect who were personally tough, demanding but had your back, and in various ways shaped my professional philosophy in engineering practice and management.

First, J. Badri Narayan PE, metallurgist This man was so smart that he made my head ache just trying to listen to him. A kinder, more patient person I will never find again. Worked for him in the lab at Westinghouse, story above.

Frank K. Bakos, Industrial engineer, my plant manager, Westinghouse. Like me, Frank had been an hourly employee at Westinghouse East Pittsburgh plant, getting his degree at the University of Pittsburgh at the same time. He worked on the staff at the Bettis Atomic Laboratory for Admiral Hyman Rickover on US Navy Nuclear programs before returning to Westinghouse. I credit this man for Westinghouse paying for my college degree and overseeing my professional development as a future inspection supervisor.

Harold G. Hall, Mechanical Engineer, owner and president of Hall Industries. He was the father figure I needed after my layoff from J&L Steel. He was a Carnegie Tech (now Carnegie Mellon) graduate who opened his business doors to provide lab space CMU grad students whom I was around a lot in addition to my Gal Friday duties in the multiple shops from Pittsburgh to Ellwood city, PA.

Walter Green, Mechanical Engineer, Grumman Space Station Freedom Support Program. graduate of Brooklyn Technical High School(?) and Grumman Aerospace training program. Walt worked on the Lunar Entry Module (LEM) for the NASA Apollo Program. We first met when he hired me on another defunct spacecraft program where we both got fired at the same time. We remained good friends during my tenure at NASA as a contractor. Walt later hired me back on his staff as a reliability engineer to try to salvage the Grumman contract with NASA.

Thomas J. Kelly, Mechanical engineer, Grumman Aerospace. Mr. Kelly was my indirect supervisor and program manager on the Space Station Freedom project. He and Walt had remained good friends since the days of the LEM. A more soft spoken man you will never find, but I swear you could smell the smoke coming from the mental gears grinding away in his head. I am honored to have had the opportunity to have worked for him even though NASA cancelled the contract and the International Space Station was built instead.